Comments on: How an outdated view of masculinity ignores the needs of all men http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/how-an-outdated-view-of-masculinity-ignores-the-needs-of-all-men/ Maymay's pursuit of life, liberty, and sexual freedom. Fri, 30 Jul 2010 05:03:51 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Why I Revile the Memory of Arthur Pendragon « beyond the hills http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/how-an-outdated-view-of-masculinity-ignores-the-needs-of-all-men/#comment-5443 Why I Revile the Memory of Arthur Pendragon « beyond the hills Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:53:48 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/on-being-a-man-and-a-knight-submissive/#comment-5443 [...] worthy. I plan to court my mates. I will court them with my skills, my wit, and my body to prove I can provide for them. But if someone wants to court me, then they better lay a deer at my feet, knit me a sweater, or be [...] [...] worthy. I plan to court my mates. I will court them with my skills, my wit, and my body to prove I can provide for them. But if someone wants to court me, then they better lay a deer at my feet, knit me a sweater, or be [...]

]]> By: Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed › Rocking the Boat. By which I mean I also enjoy a good facial http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/how-an-outdated-view-of-masculinity-ignores-the-needs-of-all-men/#comment-3886 Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed › Rocking the Boat. By which I mean I also enjoy a good facial Mon, 04 Aug 2008 16:03:46 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/on-being-a-man-and-a-knight-submissive/#comment-3886 [...] How an outdated view of masculinity ignores the needs of all men [...] [...] How an outdated view of masculinity ignores the needs of all men [...]

]]> By: maymay http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/how-an-outdated-view-of-masculinity-ignores-the-needs-of-all-men/#comment-1085 maymay Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:36:04 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/on-being-a-man-and-a-knight-submissive/#comment-1085 Tyler, that's very interesting indeed; thanks for the background and the perspective! Also, yes, it doesn't make sense to study femininity without masculinity or vice versa. More than anything else, however, it makes me distasteful of academics and the current system under which people are expected to learn these things, which I think is more than just broken, it's harmful. Admittedly, I don't have a lot of background information on women's versus men's studies courses specifically, but it seems to me that if what you say is true then the only viable solution is <em>first</em> a radical education reform, <em>not</em> only a re-focusing on gendered studies. The latter only seems possible after the former is complete. I linked to this in one of my next posts (<a href="/2007/12/20/the-sexism-of-sex-and-smarts/#comment-1074" rel="nofollow">The Sexism of Sex and Smarts</a>), but in case you missed it I think you would be captivated by <a href="//www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/66" rel="nofollow">this relevant video about education and creativity</a> if you have not already seen it. Thanks again for your comments! They're absolutely wonderful! Tyler, that’s very interesting indeed; thanks for the background and the perspective! Also, yes, it doesn’t make sense to study femininity without masculinity or vice versa. More than anything else, however, it makes me distasteful of academics and the current system under which people are expected to learn these things, which I think is more than just broken, it’s harmful. Admittedly, I don’t have a lot of background information on women’s versus men’s studies courses specifically, but it seems to me that if what you say is true then the only viable solution is first a radical education reform, not only a re-focusing on gendered studies. The latter only seems possible after the former is complete.

I linked to this in one of my next posts (The Sexism of Sex and Smarts), but in case you missed it I think you would be captivated by this relevant video about education and creativity if you have not already seen it.

Thanks again for your comments! They’re absolutely wonderful!

]]> By: Chris http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/how-an-outdated-view-of-masculinity-ignores-the-needs-of-all-men/#comment-1084 Chris Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:07:03 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/on-being-a-man-and-a-knight-submissive/#comment-1084 Thanks for that info, Tyler. A lot of what you described about the politics of Gender/Womens/Men's studies programs was new to me. The vast majority of my exploration concerning these issues began for me as a senior in college, when I only had time to begin exploring the Women's Studies program. Therefore, most of my encounters with the field I have cobbled together on my own or absorbed through friends (self-learning is a mixed blessing... you get to pursue your own ideas, but frequently miss out on important background or unifying concepts). I have been similarly interested in why men are so resistant to studying gender issues. I agree with Maymay that the concept of involving oneself is Women's studies courses is a fairly major leap for most men. This is particularly true because I don't think that many men get introduced to gender issues in a way that engages them. But, that isn't entirely an excuse. Women have been trying for decades to get men to take these issues seriously, and... well... look at where we are now. This is part of why I think that it is essential for men to take leadership in making these changes. There have been a few interesting examples. The National Organization for Men Against Sexism (NOMAS) has done some interesting work (although I don't know what their current status is), as has Men Can Stop Rape (MCSR). But these are just drops in the barrel. This is why I am curious about your stance on Men's studies programs. It seems to be rather radical to flip the tables and make men the subject of investigation (rather than being the invisible force that is just assumed to exist). While I personally like the idea of gender studies (since I'd prefer to see the whole system undermined rather than reified), I would very much like to see more visible academic efforts that try to address masculinity as a construct. I come at this from the perspective of someone who has tried very hard to comunicate with men to engage them in this topic, and had only mixed success. If further research or an opening of gender as an appropriate topic of study for men would improve this effort, I'd be delighted. Thanks for that info, Tyler. A lot of what you described about the politics of Gender/Womens/Men’s studies programs was new to me. The vast majority of my exploration concerning these issues began for me as a senior in college, when I only had time to begin exploring the Women’s Studies program. Therefore, most of my encounters with the field I have cobbled together on my own or absorbed through friends (self-learning is a mixed blessing… you get to pursue your own ideas, but frequently miss out on important background or unifying concepts). I have been similarly interested in why men are so resistant to studying gender issues. I agree with Maymay that the concept of involving oneself is Women’s studies courses is a fairly major leap for most men. This is particularly true because I don’t think that many men get introduced to gender issues in a way that engages them. But, that isn’t entirely an excuse. Women have been trying for decades to get men to take these issues seriously, and… well… look at where we are now. This is part of why I think that it is essential for men to take leadership in making these changes. There have been a few interesting examples. The National Organization for Men Against Sexism (NOMAS) has done some interesting work (although I don’t know what their current status is), as has Men Can Stop Rape (MCSR). But these are just drops in the barrel. This is why I am curious about your stance on Men’s studies programs. It seems to be rather radical to flip the tables and make men the subject of investigation (rather than being the invisible force that is just assumed to exist). While I personally like the idea of gender studies (since I’d prefer to see the whole system undermined rather than reified), I would very much like to see more visible academic efforts that try to address masculinity as a construct. I come at this from the perspective of someone who has tried very hard to comunicate with men to engage them in this topic, and had only mixed success. If further research or an opening of gender as an appropriate topic of study for men would improve this effort, I’d be delighted.

]]> By: Tyler http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/how-an-outdated-view-of-masculinity-ignores-the-needs-of-all-men/#comment-1081 Tyler Sun, 23 Dec 2007 05:41:48 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/on-being-a-man-and-a-knight-submissive/#comment-1081 there are schools with men's studies programs. the problem with that is that they take away from efforts to focus on gender instead enforcing the dichotomy that those who study gender as fluid would like to avoid. Arguably, women's studies sounds as if it does the same, but actually women's studies programs did not begin as a place to study gender, but instead to supplement every other field which ignored contributions by women (for example, history). Most history is already men's history. Studies of gender have only come more recently, and because they were not large enough to constitute an entire department at first, they fell under women's studies because it was one of the only departments that considered it something worthy to study. Something about the observation that the labeled group is the one with less power (meaning that men don't usually appear to have gender because they are THE gender, in much the same way whites have been historically seen as "without" race). There in fact was a huge split over whether to change the names of such departments to women's and gender studies or just gender studies or to make separate departments altogether. Each institution kind of goes their own way about it. But on that note, while you think it is sad that learning about masculinity in a women's studies class, I think it absolutely appropriate. It further emphasizes a gender theory that I embrace: that if society is going to insist on female/male dichotomies then it is necessary to understand that there is NO masculinity without femininity and vice versa. This is why I don't believe in Men's studies programs personally.. because if they are conducting studies of masculinity they belong with studies of femininity and all other gendered traits, in gender studies. If they are going to be the male version of women's studies, well.. that already exists in pretty much the rest of any college's curriculum. In addition, the fact that men are so unwilling to participate in anything labeled "women" while women are constantly forced to participate in a world that invisibly labels itself "men" is sad. Many women study masculinity, as do many men, but you don't see the same thing happening for femininity - which is why such programs exist. From what I've heard about men's studies, they are still overwhelmingly filled with women. Sorry for the rant, but you hit upon something that is already a very hot subject right now, though I'm not sure I presented all the issues, there is a lot more going on. I would suggest that you read up on it more. It's hard to come into a debate halfway through. there are schools with men’s studies programs. the problem with that is that they take away from efforts to focus on gender instead enforcing the dichotomy that those who study gender as fluid would like to avoid. Arguably, women’s studies sounds as if it does the same, but actually women’s studies programs did not begin as a place to study gender, but instead to supplement every other field which ignored contributions by women (for example, history). Most history is already men’s history. Studies of gender have only come more recently, and because they were not large enough to constitute an entire department at first, they fell under women’s studies because it was one of the only departments that considered it something worthy to study. Something about the observation that the labeled group is the one with less power (meaning that men don’t usually appear to have gender because they are THE gender, in much the same way whites have been historically seen as “without” race). There in fact was a huge split over whether to change the names of such departments to women’s and gender studies or just gender studies or to make separate departments altogether. Each institution kind of goes their own way about it.

But on that note, while you think it is sad that learning about masculinity in a women’s studies class, I think it absolutely appropriate. It further emphasizes a gender theory that I embrace: that if society is going to insist on female/male dichotomies then it is necessary to understand that there is NO masculinity without femininity and vice versa. This is why I don’t believe in Men’s studies programs personally.. because if they are conducting studies of masculinity they belong with studies of femininity and all other gendered traits, in gender studies. If they are going to be the male version of women’s studies, well.. that already exists in pretty much the rest of any college’s curriculum.

In addition, the fact that men are so unwilling to participate in anything labeled “women” while women are constantly forced to participate in a world that invisibly labels itself “men” is sad. Many women study masculinity, as do many men, but you don’t see the same thing happening for femininity – which is why such programs exist. From what I’ve heard about men’s studies, they are still overwhelmingly filled with women.

Sorry for the rant, but you hit upon something that is already a very hot subject right now, though I’m not sure I presented all the issues, there is a lot more going on. I would suggest that you read up on it more. It’s hard to come into a debate halfway through.

]]> By: maymay http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/how-an-outdated-view-of-masculinity-ignores-the-needs-of-all-men/#comment-1066 maymay Sat, 22 Dec 2007 07:26:30 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/on-being-a-man-and-a-knight-submissive/#comment-1066 <blockquote>this is exactly why more men need to take gender studies classes (and women’s studies class).</blockquote> Perhaps more men would be interested in such classes if they could find classes that were termed <em>Men's Studies</em>? The obvious irony of learning about masculinity at a women's studies class is beyond humorous, it's sad.

this is exactly why more men need to take gender studies classes (and women’s studies class).

Perhaps more men would be interested in such classes if they could find classes that were termed Men’s Studies? The obvious irony of learning about masculinity at a women’s studies class is beyond humorous, it’s sad.

]]> By: tyler http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/how-an-outdated-view-of-masculinity-ignores-the-needs-of-all-men/#comment-1052 tyler Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:33:22 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/on-being-a-man-and-a-knight-submissive/#comment-1052 <blockquote>Which isn’t to say that it’s not OK to see your partner’s need and strive to meet that - that’s nice, and (as long as you’re not damaging yourself) it’s a good thing. But, when we’re talking about adults, it’s not the *responsibility* of anyone other than oneself to look after one’s needs.</blockquote> Exactly what I was going for. And also, to all the other comments above, this is exactly why more men need to take gender studies classes (and women's studies class). One of the reasons my program and others like it get so little funding is because people don't take it seriously, but think about this: how many people live unhappy lives, ruin their relationships with other people, and generally feel lost because of this system that forces everyone to behave differently than they would like to. There is no one I know that wouldn't benefit from thinking these types of issues through seriously.

Which isn’t to say that it’s not OK to see your partner’s need and strive to meet that – that’s nice, and (as long as you’re not damaging yourself) it’s a good thing. But, when we’re talking about adults, it’s not the *responsibility* of anyone other than oneself to look after one’s needs.

Exactly what I was going for.

And also, to all the other comments above, this is exactly why more men need to take gender studies classes (and women’s studies class). One of the reasons my program and others like it get so little funding is because people don’t take it seriously, but think about this: how many people live unhappy lives, ruin their relationships with other people, and generally feel lost because of this system that forces everyone to behave differently than they would like to. There is no one I know that wouldn’t benefit from thinking these types of issues through seriously.

]]> By: Juliet http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/how-an-outdated-view-of-masculinity-ignores-the-needs-of-all-men/#comment-1036 Juliet Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:35:01 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/on-being-a-man-and-a-knight-submissive/#comment-1036 (sorry, this comment has no content, I just forgot to click the email followup button) (sorry, this comment has no content, I just forgot to click the email followup button)

]]> By: Juliet http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/how-an-outdated-view-of-masculinity-ignores-the-needs-of-all-men/#comment-1035 Juliet Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:34:00 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/on-being-a-man-and-a-knight-submissive/#comment-1035 Agreed that feminism has a lot to say about the standard views on masculinity as well as femininity. The current patriarchal system is bad for *everyone*. I'm also interested by what you're saying further down about allowing people to provide for their own needs. I've increasingly come to the belief that individuals taking responsibility for their own needs and the meeting of those is possibly the only way that relationships can work happily in the long term. Which isn't to say that it's not OK to see your partner's need and strive to meet that - that's nice, and (as long as you're not damaging yourself) it's a good thing. But, when we're talking about adults, it's not the *responsibility* of anyone other than oneself to look after one's needs. Agreed that feminism has a lot to say about the standard views on masculinity as well as femininity. The current patriarchal system is bad for *everyone*.

I’m also interested by what you’re saying further down about allowing people to provide for their own needs. I’ve increasingly come to the belief that individuals taking responsibility for their own needs and the meeting of those is possibly the only way that relationships can work happily in the long term. Which isn’t to say that it’s not OK to see your partner’s need and strive to meet that – that’s nice, and (as long as you’re not damaging yourself) it’s a good thing. But, when we’re talking about adults, it’s not the *responsibility* of anyone other than oneself to look after one’s needs.

]]> By: maymay http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/how-an-outdated-view-of-masculinity-ignores-the-needs-of-all-men/#comment-1034 maymay Thu, 20 Dec 2007 04:26:26 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/18/on-being-a-man-and-a-knight-submissive/#comment-1034 Wow, Chris. That is an awesome selection of resources. Thanks for the references. This is precisely why I know that I lack so much education on the topic, even though, it seems, I seem to intuitively understand much of what these authors probably are saying already. Always good to learn more from others' perspectives, though. Again, thanks. Wow, Chris. That is an awesome selection of resources. Thanks for the references. This is precisely why I know that I lack so much education on the topic, even though, it seems, I seem to intuitively understand much of what these authors probably are saying already. Always good to learn more from others’ perspectives, though. Again, thanks.

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