Comments on: The Sexism of Politeness http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/ Because 'kinky' is an adjective, not an activity Fri, 18 May 2012 00:29:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Arousal, sexual desire, and female domination « Delving into Deviance http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-141854 Arousal, sexual desire, and female domination « Delving into Deviance Mon, 25 Apr 2011 09:05:02 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-141854 [...] I was particularly impacted by his words,  “it manifests in the way people look at me, talk to me, talk about me. It manifests in women’s eyes when they look away if I smile at them; they’re [...] [...] I was particularly impacted by his words,  “it manifests in the way people look at me, talk to me, talk about me. It manifests in women’s eyes when they look away if I smile at them; they’re [...]

]]> By: Richard http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1198 Richard Mon, 31 Dec 2007 21:23:35 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1198 As a young man in the south I was certainly trained in good manners as they were called. Though it was as much directed at older people as females. Having women friends who found the latter unseemly I unlearned the gender bias. While possibly seeming ageist I continued to be more scrupulous in doing things like surrendering bus seats to older people since many of them – if only through bad diet – have weaker bones, less physical strength. Now, I would’ve probably held the door open for you. Maybe only because I could tell you were having a hard time. Or possibly because you were a nice looking young man. I eventually inverted my sexist impulses to my own gender. It was great. I could do all the childish masculine things but since it was with other males I didn’t violate the ethical canons of my peer group. It was fun. As a young man in the south I was certainly trained in good manners as they were called. Though it was as much directed at older people as females. Having women friends who found the latter unseemly I unlearned the gender bias. While possibly seeming ageist I continued to be more scrupulous in doing things like surrendering bus seats to older people since many of them – if only through bad diet – have weaker bones, less physical strength.

Now, I would’ve probably held the door open for you. Maybe only because I could tell you were having a hard time. Or possibly because you were a nice looking young man. I eventually inverted my sexist impulses to my own gender. It was great. I could do all the childish masculine things but since it was with other males I didn’t violate the ethical canons of my peer group. It was fun.

]]> By: subversive_sub http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1197 subversive_sub Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:07:48 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1197 I don't care much for politesse of any sort, for precisely the reason that a single act can be interpreted in so many ways depending on your gender, race, age, and cultural background. I personally feel that most acts done to be "polite" usually serve to establish dominance, reinforce hierarchy, and/or eliminate the opportunity for an unpleasant or inconvenient interaction with someone. (For the latter, I'm referring to things like "polite" conversation.) I like Tom's description of politesse as "the lube of civilization" -- except that for me, this is a negative rather than a positive thing. In cases of sexism, I have found the "I was just being polite" excuse to be a convenient way for people to not have to address the problems with treating one gender differently than another. That said, I don't blame people who perform acts often read as "being polite" (holding doors and coats, wishing safe travels), but I would also hope that, when reminded of the subtext of their action, they would take a moment to reflect on it (as Maymay does here), rather than blame the other person for being ungrateful or ridiculous. I've heard the same response (I was just trying to be nice!) from plenty of men I've approached after they cat-called me on the street. Treating a person differently because of your perception of their sex or gender is sexism, and good intentions don't make it hurt any less. For the record, I do think there are better ways than others to deal with sexist behavior, and that in some cases, there's not much one can say that would make a difference. I don't usually confront door-openers and coat-holders unless they're people known to me, for example, because dealing with issues like these generally takes more time than one would normally have to spend with a passing stranger. I don’t care much for politesse of any sort, for precisely the reason that a single act can be interpreted in so many ways depending on your gender, race, age, and cultural background. I personally feel that most acts done to be “polite” usually serve to establish dominance, reinforce hierarchy, and/or eliminate the opportunity for an unpleasant or inconvenient interaction with someone. (For the latter, I’m referring to things like “polite” conversation.) I like Tom’s description of politesse as “the lube of civilization” — except that for me, this is a negative rather than a positive thing.

In cases of sexism, I have found the “I was just being polite” excuse to be a convenient way for people to not have to address the problems with treating one gender differently than another. That said, I don’t blame people who perform acts often read as “being polite” (holding doors and coats, wishing safe travels), but I would also hope that, when reminded of the subtext of their action, they would take a moment to reflect on it (as Maymay does here), rather than blame the other person for being ungrateful or ridiculous. I’ve heard the same response (I was just trying to be nice!) from plenty of men I’ve approached after they cat-called me on the street. Treating a person differently because of your perception of their sex or gender is sexism, and good intentions don’t make it hurt any less.
For the record, I do think there are better ways than others to deal with sexist behavior, and that in some cases, there’s not much one can say that would make a difference. I don’t usually confront door-openers and coat-holders unless they’re people known to me, for example, because dealing with issues like these generally takes more time than one would normally have to spend with a passing stranger.

]]> By: SJ http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1196 SJ Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:59:43 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1196 I grew up in part in a service industry. I open the door for everyone else, if I can. I always feel a little awkward walking through a held door, though less so when I know it's the person's job to be there and open doors. Though, come to think of it, I don't think I've seen a female doorperson in NYC. Female guards, yes, but I can't remember seeing a female doorman, or many female bellhops. Or male housekeeping, though that's growing. I grew up in part in a service industry. I open the door for everyone else, if I can. I always feel a little awkward walking through a held door, though less so when I know it’s the person’s job to be there and open doors.

Though, come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve seen a female doorperson in NYC. Female guards, yes, but I can’t remember seeing a female doorman, or many female bellhops. Or male housekeeping, though that’s growing.

]]> By: alterisego http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1193 alterisego Mon, 31 Dec 2007 04:15:10 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1193 I went through a phase at one point of crusading against guys who opened doors for me. If a guy held open a door and waited for me, I would stand there, refusing to move until he went through. Guys would protest "It's not sexist! I always open doors! I'm just being polite!" but I maintained that they didn't do that for their male friends. Sometimes they took to physically pushing me through the door in frustration. I gave up on that after a while - now I just try to get to the door and hold it open first - but it still annoys me to no end the way this rule is so ingrained in the way we are raised, that guys grow up automatically opening doors and women grow up automatically walking through them. I went through a phase at one point of crusading against guys who opened doors for me. If a guy held open a door and waited for me, I would stand there, refusing to move until he went through. Guys would protest “It’s not sexist! I always open doors! I’m just being polite!” but I maintained that they didn’t do that for their male friends. Sometimes they took to physically pushing me through the door in frustration.

I gave up on that after a while – now I just try to get to the door and hold it open first – but it still annoys me to no end the way this rule is so ingrained in the way we are raised, that guys grow up automatically opening doors and women grow up automatically walking through them.

]]> By: Tom Allen http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1189 Tom Allen Sun, 30 Dec 2007 21:06:08 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1189 I would have held the door for you, May. Even if I didn't know it was you. <i>Sometimes I feel like I should let someone open the door for me because it would be impolite not to accept the gesture. Right?</i> I used to argue this point with my feminist friends... er, back when I had feminist friends; I lost them all because of our incessant arguing. ;-) But you bring up a good point: acknowledging the simple social niceties is one of the lubes of civilization; many men commit chivalrous acts without any other motive or thought than "that's what I'm supposed to do." To decry these actions seems ungrateful, especially because those men are suddenly off-balance because of the sudden breach of a social contract. I would have held the door for you, May. Even if I didn’t know it was you.

Sometimes I feel like I should let someone open the door for me because it would be impolite not to accept the gesture. Right?

I used to argue this point with my feminist friends… er, back when I had feminist friends; I lost them all because of our incessant arguing. ;-)

But you bring up a good point: acknowledging the simple social niceties is one of the lubes of civilization; many men commit chivalrous acts without any other motive or thought than “that’s what I’m supposed to do.” To decry these actions seems ungrateful, especially because those men are suddenly off-balance because of the sudden breach of a social contract.

]]> By: maymay http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1184 maymay Sun, 30 Dec 2007 16:01:34 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1184 Scintillio, thanks for the kind words. Naturally, I'd agree: the golden rule is, as far as I can currently tell, infallible thanks to its simplicity. Wendy, good luck with the move! Miss Avarice: <blockquote>I guess these are just further thoughts and what you have already said.</blockquote> Nothing wrong with that! Further thoughts are a very good thing as far as I am concerned, especially when they agree with what I've got to say. :D Scintillio, thanks for the kind words. Naturally, I’d agree: the golden rule is, as far as I can currently tell, infallible thanks to its simplicity.

Wendy, good luck with the move!

Miss Avarice:

I guess these are just further thoughts and what you have already said.

Nothing wrong with that! Further thoughts are a very good thing as far as I am concerned, especially when they agree with what I’ve got to say. :D

]]> By: Miss Avarice http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1179 Miss Avarice Sun, 30 Dec 2007 07:23:42 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1179 We touched on politeness rules last semester, in "Classics in Feminist Theory." I think you're right that politeness is gendered, and you've done a good job of explaining that fact. I would like to add that while there are politeness rules for men, there are also politeness rules for women, but I think they they generally apply to women's language and posture, rather than in doing helpful things for other people. If you think about it, we (the Grand "we") tell little girls not to do thus and so because it is "unladylike" but do we tell little boys not do things that are "ungentlemanly"? Not so often - I think if we teach little boys manners, we tell them they are being "polite" but politeness is gendered for little girls - it's "ladylike" even if it's a behavior that we would reinforce in both boys and girls. In my experience, ladies are <i>likely</i> to do just about anything. I think women's default mode of politeness is to say little and mean even less than she says, to sit properly with her knees together or crossed, and to always smile. To accept chivalry even when it's oppressive - like when the security guard at my building makes a big show of opening the door for me. Like I'm a princess entering the grand ball - it makes me feel insecure and wary. Sometimes I feel like I should let someone open the door for me because it would be impolite not to accept the gesture. Right? I guess these are just further thoughts and what you have already said. We touched on politeness rules last semester, in “Classics in Feminist Theory.” I think you’re right that politeness is gendered, and you’ve done a good job of explaining that fact. I would like to add that while there are politeness rules for men, there are also politeness rules for women, but I think they they generally apply to women’s language and posture, rather than in doing helpful things for other people.

If you think about it, we (the Grand “we”) tell little girls not to do thus and so because it is “unladylike” but do we tell little boys not do things that are “ungentlemanly”? Not so often – I think if we teach little boys manners, we tell them they are being “polite” but politeness is gendered for little girls – it’s “ladylike” even if it’s a behavior that we would reinforce in both boys and girls. In my experience, ladies are likely to do just about anything.

I think women’s default mode of politeness is to say little and mean even less than she says, to sit properly with her knees together or crossed, and to always smile. To accept chivalry even when it’s oppressive – like when the security guard at my building makes a big show of opening the door for me. Like I’m a princess entering the grand ball – it makes me feel insecure and wary. Sometimes I feel like I should let someone open the door for me because it would be impolite not to accept the gesture. Right?

I guess these are just further thoughts and what you have already said.

]]> By: Wendy http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1175 Wendy Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:05:18 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1175 Gyah. I have something to say, but I need my books to cite exactly what I mean. Cure you, moving gods! Gyah. I have something to say, but I need my books to cite exactly what I mean. Cure you, moving gods!

]]> By: Scintillio http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1173 Scintillio Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:49:02 +0000 http://maybemaimed.com/2007/12/29/the-sexism-of-politeness/#comment-1173 Very well written blog post and insightful. I've always operated under the "quid pro quo" or my mother's "how would you like to be treated?" motto. If I thought for a second that someone, anyone needed help, I just do it. If they say no, I usually ask "Are you sure? It's no problem." So to me it really wouldn't have mattered if you were male, female, old or young... opening the dang door would have been really easy for me... not so easy for you with an armful. Again, interesting post bringing some needed light to a dark corner of society. Dave Very well written blog post and insightful.

I’ve always operated under the “quid pro quo” or my mother’s “how would you like to be treated?” motto.

If I thought for a second that someone, anyone needed help, I just do it. If they say no, I usually ask “Are you sure? It’s no problem.”

So to me it really wouldn’t have mattered if you were male, female, old or young… opening the dang door would have been really easy for me… not so easy for you with an armful.

Again, interesting post bringing some needed light to a dark corner of society.

Dave

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