I have noted that one of the reasons people are slow to interact with but quick to trust me is because I am obstinately public. When it comes to my views, I do not often have “private” conversations. This makes me an easy person to vet and, unless you are similarly publicly transparent, a difficult person to engage.
Put another way, I’m not loyal to people, I’m loyal to principles. I’m starting to really understand how strange this makes me, especially in the context of marginalized communities such as sexual minorities. In these communities, people who an individual can call friends are a (sometimes literal) lifeline. Without the intra-communiy cohesion unquestioned loyalty can provide to oppressed groups, individuals can be picked off (“silenced”) by a predatory mainstream culture as though they were the stragglers in a herd of prey. There is safety, so the saying goes, in numbers.
However, such safety does have costs. Chief among them is the same sort of sociological blindness any given oppressed group blames the privileged class for. Subcultures are no more immune to the toxins in society than the mainstream; we are not necessarily less racist, for example, because we attend sex parties than if we had not. Those in the community of sexual freedom advocates, excuse the pun, are no saints. They, and sometimes even I, get bit by this blind spot just like any other marginalized group. Only proactively principled stances, often in the face of opposition including from within your own group, move us as a community and ultimately as a society towards a more just and healthy culture.
Or, as I said in my critique of Kink, Inc. last month, “Those of you with a sense of loyalty stronger than a sense of principle are complicit in the failure of your own movement.” There is therefore an inherent tension an unprivileged individual faces that a privileged one does not: do I prioritize loyalty to the group at the knowing or unknowing expense of principles I presumably stand for by being part of the group (a short-term investment) or vice versa, prioritizing principle at the expense of loyalty to the group (a long-term investment)?
From here, we return to my premise: if one chooses the latter, one’s affinity (sense of belonging, friendship, etc.) with the group may be threatened, while if one chooses the former, one’s rather insensitive blind spots could stick out like a sore thumb. In this conception, neither the rock or the hard place is comfortable. And things get more complex when we examine such challenges across more than one axis simultaneously, that is, when we acknowledge the intersectionality in our lives.
I don’t have a solution for the dilemma. I’m not saying choosing to do one thing over another is somehow more noble. And maybe this is actually a journey most comfortably weathered somewhere along the middle line rather than the poles.
All I’m saying is that it’s valuable to understand that we, as a subculture, are not actually as removed from the mainstream as we like to say that we are. And, if that’s too hard for you to believe, then at least be willing to recognize that there are, in fact, minorities within our own minority. Let’s try to do better by them than have been done by us.
by Nickm
05 Feb 2011 at 04:17
Loyalty to principles includes people… Loyalty to people excludes principles. I too vote for principles.
by SnowdropExplodes
06 Feb 2011 at 20:43
I have to admit, I get alarm bells when I hear or read a phrase like “Put another way, I’m not loyal to people, I’m loyal to principles.”
Especially in conjunction with your comment from the last post, ‘In case you wonder how I sleep at night, I justify it the same way any other asshole probably justifies it: I think I’m an asshole about “the right things†and not an asshole about “the wrong things.‒
To me it sounds far too much like the way extremists justify their worldview, and a lot of people have met a lot of nasty ends thanks to philosophies that put principles above people – even principles that were supposed to be about uplifting the people.
I don’t think you’re like that sort of person, and I don’t think you mean that sort of “principles before people”. But at the same time, I think it’s hard to be sure of staying the right side of the line between the positive idea that you express, and the negative side that epitomises those extremist ideologues. I don’t want this to degenerate into a slippery-slope fallacy (or for that matter, a Godwin-type fail), so I don’t suggest that you’re in danger of going that way. Nevertheless, in my experience the opposite of Nickm’s statement is true: I find that loyalty to principles tends to exclude people, whereas loyalty to people tends to include (or at least, allow) principles – and also allows principles to be introduced to those people, which is what I suspect you’re really talking about.
by Nickm
06 Feb 2011 at 23:40
It is easier to appear nobler by “putting people above principles” and by condemning loyalty to principles… Indeed it may be a slippery slope of meaning and intention. Yet, dear SnowdropExplodes, with choices like the ones you make, like this oh so poetically loaded name you chose, you should, by now, understand and admit that you too, deep down, are driven by principles first, even if yours are “putting people first”… You were careful to note that Maymay is most likely not an extremist who is going to send anyone, anytime soon, to the gas chambers. Maymay’s record of his actions as well as his “preachings” speaks volumes about those principles which got your alarm bells ringing. Not the least of those principles is his unwavering commitment to the truth, to reality, to awareness, to personal dignity and  integrity, to all the principles of freedom and self actualization. Unfortunately, history have proven time and again that the greatest enemies of human rights were PEOPLE and not principles. People can be motivated by greed for power, principles cannot. People, void of principles can become religious and extreme, principles cannot. Well then, do you find that what I say is potentially an extremist ideology? – I do recognize, too, your attempt at noble intention, yet, any way you slice the issue, you will find a motivation and a principle at the bottom core. It is now only a matter of identifying, recognizing, adapting, adopting it and then following its course with courage and integrity. It more than a mere matter of semantics. Think of John Lennon’s “Imagine”. What do you see/hear first: people or principles? – for that matter, if you still hesitate, just think of LOVE as a guiding principle. I think I made my point. I would like, however, to thank you, Snowdrop… for opening a door to clarify that. Peace.
by SnowdropExplodes
07 Feb 2011 at 08:43
@Nickm:
What value do principles such as “commitment to the truth, to reality, to awareness, to personal dignity and integrity, to all the principles of freedom and self actualization” have, except in relation to people?
And, as Maymay’s other comment acknowledges, he justifies his behaviour in just the same way that the tyrants have justified theirs: they believe that they are assholes about the right things. Truth, reality and awareness are curiously subjective things for a lot of people, and some people, believing they are acting for those things, will do nasty things to other people.
In John Lennon’s “Imagine”, I hear a cry against the effects of living for principles – for example: “imagine all the people living for today”, “imagine there’s no countries, it isn’t hard to do/ nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too”.
As you see, I am diametrically opposed to your claim that “People, void of principles can become religious and extreme, principles cannot.” Religious extremism is one of the ways in which I see principles being placed above people.
You ask, “Well then, do you find that what I say is potentially an extremist ideology?” My answer is no – but I find it to be potentially the sort of well-meaning liberalism that allows extremism to flourish in the guise of positive activism.
In effect, you appear to end up saying something along the lines of, “loyalty is a principle too, so if you are loyal to people you are still about principles really”, which really is semantics (and yes, actually, I think saying “think of LOVE as a guiding principle” is just repeating that same semantic sleight of hand).
(Incidentally, I didn’t choose this name, although I certainly adopted it once my friends gave it to me – I’m curious about what you think it is “poetically” loaded with, though, and whether it matches my own perception of it.)
by Nickm
07 Feb 2011 at 15:57
Dear snowdropExplodes
I truly believe that like many people, you are failing to see the impact of the following fact on the way you view and live life. And the undeniable fact, as philosophical or theoretical as you may have it, is that none of what we are debating can exist outside the realms of LANGUAGE, a magnificent construct of principles. Magnificent but far from perfect, a “deficiency” which is responsible for what may seem like a “personalizing” reality and truth, or, as you put it “semantic sleight of hand”.
 Look, this is not a competition between us here, nor do I want you to buy my product. The main thing here is that when I hear IMAGINE I am touched and inspired by what I perceive as the RELIABLE nature of what is true and constant principles which are BEYOND, way beyond, even the most formidable human inventions such as country and religion too: LOVE, FREEDOM, and LIFE.
 indeed, as an activist, anyone with the urge to promote an agenda, may seem as someone who has “something to fight for” if not to kill or die for, depending on whatever… Yet, activism and advocacy, which is a form of diplomacy is a necessary part of what I perceive as a healthy society in which I would choose to live in. It is necessary, because activism, such as the kind Maymay engages in, counters and balances the inevitable diplomacies of power mongers, tyrants, religious opportunists and anyone else who happens to ignore, yet again, all those wonderful concepts/principles of love, equality etc, because he thinks that HIS “principles” give him the right to do so.Â
I will admit, as before, that it is a slippery slope of meaning and intent, so I will leave it here, stating only that:
I understand Maymay’s statement about loyalty to principles above loyalty to people as an honest declaration to commit to objectivity, pretty much in the spirit of judicial view, in which when carried out justly, the cleric is not getting credit, the rich is not more worthy, skin color is not a factor etc.Â
As for the poetic load in the name you adopted, I suspect that I can’t reveal new meanings there, beyond what is apparent. And if you stand by this choice as a name that adequately resonates with who you are, then you must be a person of great opposing poles, and honestly, your writing is quite a testimony of that as well. Now before I leave this soapbox, let me clarify that I enjoyed and appreciated everything you said, even if I disagreed. Additionally, I know, pardon the assumption, that you are guided by principles I value. So, there you are.
Peace
by SnowdropExplodes
07 Feb 2011 at 16:52
@ Nickm:
Yet what is the purpose of language except to interact with other people? Language has principles in order to provide a common basis so that thoughts and ideas can be communicated (imperfectly, always) from one subjective framework to another. Thus, I would argue that everything we debate exists “outside” language, language is merely the tool that we use to discuss it.
Your tone in your opening paragraph, to be honest, resonated with the sort of attitude that I fear when I hear someone talk about putting “principles” ahead of “people”, and sounded really quite patronising and dismissive. It also did not seem to be a relevant answer to the position I have taken (I would need you to explain to me what you understood as being ‘a “personalizing†reality and truth’ that I expressed, for example).
This whole thing revolves around a chicken-and-egg question. You have chosen one answer, and I the other. You say you hear in “Imagine” principles above and beyond country and religion; but I hear “imagine all the PEOPLE, living for today/living life in peace/sharing all the world”. I can’t imagine “love”, “freedom” or “life” without reference to people. But I do believe that people can (and do) honestly believe they are acting in loyalty to those principles and yet still do hideous things to other people based on their understanding of those principles. Those people, too, believe that their principles give them the right to act as they do.
You introduce a new term, “diplomacy”, without defining your usage. You appear to view it as a bad thing, to be avoided where possible, engaged in where necessary, and exposed wherever it exists. I don’t know, though, why you believe those things.
Anyone who talks about “objectivity” also rings alarm bells for me when it comes to political movements, because that again calls to mind an image of actual people being trampled underfoot because their lives don’t match someone’s “objective” version of “truth”. In other words, precisely the opposite of what I understand Maymay’s position to be! I am suspicious of “judicial view” for much the same reasons.
I think, however, we are drifting further and further from the meaning of the OP. (It’s possible that you think just the opposite – you seem to be taking at a very abstract level, so the greater the abstraction of our debate the closer we come to your perception?)
But the way I read the meaning is more about being willing to say “hey, dude, that wasn’t cool, what you just said/did, maybe think about not being so mean in future, ‘mkay?” I was reminded just today of the “5 Geek Social Fallacies”, where it occurred to me that that piece is relevant here, and perhaps what the OP is really about is Maymay saying “I resolutely do not succumb to GSF #1 or #3” (that is, it is not always the case that “ostracisers are evil” and also that friendship does not come before everything else).
That’s a lot different from the attitudes that I fear when I hear “principles above people”.
by Nickm
07 Feb 2011 at 18:49
I believe that language IS the very fabric in which any sentience can exist. If you don’t get that, and you don’t have to if you choose otherwise, then our debate is Teutonic.
When I said “personalizing” reality I meant applying subjectivity.
I used the word diplomacy to refer to exchanges of political agendas.
It is not a bad thing, in fact it is the best tool to negotiate among agendas, it is a necessity, and I was referring to the importance of being diplomatic or having diplomacy used to advance my agendas.
My understanding of objectivity in reference to this discussion refers to all elements beyond subjective agenda, such as the “unalienable rights”…
As for everything else you mentioned, I think I understand, and I respect your position. You do remember that I wasn’t the one to criticize you…
I suggest that you do not fear my way of thought… I, despite your suspicions, present no threat to you or anyone for that matter.
Farewell…
by maymay
07 Feb 2011 at 19:32
I’ve enjoyed listening rather than interjecting in the discussion between Nickm and SnowdropExplodes.
That said, I did want to clarify one thing: “principles over/above people” is a red-herring, and not what I was advocating. That would be, well, stupid.
When I hear “loyalty to people,” what I hear is apologism at the expense of personal integrity. That kind of thinking is the sort that enables the HRC to throw trans people under the bus during supposed “LGBT” campaigns, that allows Republican Senators to trip over themselves in a rush to be the most “family-values friendly” while simultaneously supporting, if not promoting, those within their own party who patron prostitutes (*cough*David Vitter*cough*).
“Loyalty to people,” in this light, is an abdication of the moral responsibility to even have principles, regardless of what they are, much less follow them. And that, especially as I see such dangerous thinking often within marginalized communities including among sex-positive advocates, is something I am particularly sensitive to.
Anyway, thanks to the both of you for avoiding the trap of a flamewar, which this admittedly semantic conversation could easily have devolved into. :) Thanks, also, for the link to Five Geek Social Fallacies. That’s an interesting piece!
by SnowdropExplodes
07 Feb 2011 at 19:52
@Nickm:
I think we are using language in significantly different ways here, or at least, our backgrounds and experience have led us along very different paths of association and connotation.
@Maymay:
You’re welcome re: the link, and also re: no flamewar (serious debate is better than slanging matches any day!)
The “loyalty to people” thing – the HRC didn’t even show loyalty to people, I would say. The 5GSF stuff looks very relevant and I think is also about “apologism at the expense of personal integrity”. It’s quite scary to think about how much those fallacies turn up in that way in so many of the issues/areas I’m involved with (and some that I’m opposed to – like the Republicans, or RadFems!)
Thanks for the clarification of your position – I knew that the associations I saw didn’t fit well with what I’ve read of your writing. My purpose was more about making sure that the real intention was clear rather than saying I thought you actually were advocating the scarier side of things – I think it’s a fundamental law of the internet that if something can be taken the wrong way, then it will be!
by maymay
07 Feb 2011 at 20:03
I don’t know about that. The HRC has some pretty deeply entrenched, often troubling inter-personal politics that makes me question the motivation of some of their positions.
Y’know, the irony here is that this post is perhaps one of my most “diplomatic,” and was intentionally crafted to avoid my “characteristic harshness.” I was, in other words, practicing the use of honey instead of vinegar. Yet, the potential for misinterpretations like the one you highlight are one of the reasons why I often find my intense yet direct communication style valuable, despite how often it seems to frustrate, alienate, or enrage advocates on my “own side.”
by Nickm
07 Feb 2011 at 21:14
Thank you both, maymay and snowdropexplodes, for sharing and musing along. Snow… Indeed, language, it seems, allows us different interpretations, although, I believe, (you really are free to believe otherwise) that we are using it precisely the same way, but that belongs to another opera. Yet, since you so aptly emphasized the word PEOPLE in Lennon’s “Imagine”, I would argue that you actually missed the point, since in my humble view, he is categorically NOT talking about people, but rather about all the other words you chose to exclude from emphasis. Try seeing it my way, just as one may try a coat on to see if it fits, and suddenly you may realize that his message isn’t about people, but rather about how they apply principles. Yet, you may not see it, and that’s ok too. After all you are on my side of morality.
When I initially responded at the very top, I was motivated very much by deep seated frustration, anger, disgust and sadness over so many known and unknown stories about church clergy cover-ups in cases of abuse, pedophilia, etc… military cover ups, financial fraud cover ups, criminal cases cover ups and even some mundane, less epic cases were “ordinary” people defend and project “loyalty” towards other people who are bonafide crooks. Such cases simply make my blood boil, can’t help it.
I would have you know that while my command of English is satisfactory, it is not the language in which I think. I was born into Hebrew, and I do suspect that some of my original intentions may be lost in translation, which, for instance led you to think, somewhere above, that I accused you of “personalizing” reality in your expression. Well I did not.
Thanks again, for letting me respect you, and for giving me a clear sense of your respect.
Peace.
by SnowdropExplodes
08 Feb 2011 at 05:41
@Nickm:
We will have to agree to differ over “Imagine” – while I appreciate your point of view, I really don’t share it!
The examples you cite are certainly the sort of thing that the OP seems to be about, being as Maymay says, “an abdication of the moral responsibility to even have principles, regardless of what they are, much less follow them.” In terms of the discussion we were having, though, I would probably term it “loyalty to individuals over loyalty to people”. A full answer on these issues could probably fill a book, suffice to say that principles and people have to work together to produce an ethical framework.
Thank you for a most enlightening discussion.
by Nickm
08 Feb 2011 at 09:23
@SnowdropExplodes:
Our discussion is in my eyes a form of diplomatic exchange. Do you see why? – Additionally, again, in my view, principles do not have to work or do anything – they just ARE, and that is why, I believe, they are objective. It is not meant to ignite another debate about the potential of totalitarian worldview emanating from this belief. I say that to clarify the way I understand these things – Never to qualify my belief in comparison to others’, I am NOT a missionary, nor, for that matter an activist (Although sometimes I wish I was because I think it is so important, and because I think passion is empowering…)
As before, I enjoy and am grateful for the presence of mutual respect in this exchange, and I give and take credit for it to both of us.
Peace.
by SnowdropExplodes
08 Feb 2011 at 18:48
@Nickm:
“in my view, principles do not have to work or do anything – they just ARE, and that is why, I believe, they are objective.”
Ah, to me, something that doesn’t do anything, that has no effect upon the world, is ultimately irrelevant. My view is that a principle is only really worth considering in terms of the actions it produces. I can have the loftiest principles in the universe, but if I do nothing with them, then I might as well not have them at all. But as soon as they start to do things, they become subjective based upon the understanding and experiences of the person who holds them.
You and I, it seems, have very different philosophical world views. I think your formulations do not fit well into my world view, and my formulations don’t fit well into yours (which doesn’t make either of them wrong, it just means that the concepts don’t cross over well). I hope I have been clear in outlining what the world looks like from here, and I hope also I have gained an understanding of what it looks like from your point of view. I, too, have greatly appreciated the mutual respect in this conversation.
Thank you.
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