If you haven’t yet heard of Rabbit White’s latest project, Lady Porn Day, you probably will soon. She’s apparently discussing it with Dan Savage, Cindy Gallop of “Make Love Not Porn” fame has been pimping it on Twitter, and she’s been sending pseudo-press releases out via email (which I know because I got one). While I generally like Rabbit’s work a lot, and I had a great time when she joined me on an episode of Kink On Tap, I was disappointed (to put it mildly) by this latest endeavor of hers.
According to Rabbit, Lady Porn Day is “about celebrating pornography and masturbation. It is an opportunity for ladies of all genders (or however you identify) to open up a dialog.” All right, I’m thinking, I can totally support that. So I click on over to her project page and, sadly, my heart deflates.
What happened? I was greeted by this:
A skinny white woman wearing nothing but a white fur-lined coat with big blonde hair and big glasses baring it all in a public venue. It’s a digital flyer for Lady Porn Day, the text of the advert itself serving double-duty as publicity and censor. This is Lady Porn Day?
While this may certainly be a “celebration of pornography,” the loudest dialogue I can see predictably coming out of it is more of the sex-positive community’s lies. Yes, we tell lies, too. As Madame Thursday wrote in her excellent post, “Sex-Positivity and other lies on Tumblr“:
People have been celebrating the sexualities of attractive white people for centuries. In fact, I’d say if there were ever a time when people’s discomfort towards sex dissipates and they’re willing to accept, tolerate, and engage with sexual content is WHEN it comes in the form of these bodies, these pre-approved forms.
[…]
I looked and looked in those sex positivity blogs and sites, in their pictures and stories and I didn’t find a lot of fat people (male or female), people of color, queer people. I have yet to find a mainstream sex positivity site (yes, this movement has a mainstream) that features transgendered people in all their beauty. Forget seeing disabled people displaying their various modes of sexuality. Forget seeing their bodies displayed as revolutionary and world-changing and an example of how sex is really, really awesome.
I learned soon enough that most sex positivity is actually White Straight Thin Able Cisgendered Cissexual Positivity.
And the world is already positive enough on those traits, thank you very much.
But maybe Rabbit’s White Straight Thin Able Cisgendered Cissexual “celebration of porn” poster is a fluke. Maybe I should just scroll down the page a little bit, right? Well, down the page there are 11 other flyers for Lady Porn Day. Predictably, however, they’re all like the first:
Of these 12 “fantastic official Lady Porn Day banners,” which Rabbit (perhaps unsurprisingly at this point) says were sourced from Tumblr, female bodies feature in a grand total of 11 of them. Male bodies feature in a total of 3. Of those three, 1 banner shows only male bodies, while the other 2 both show a heterosexual pairing. Of those 2 with a heterosexual pairing, you can see the woman’s face in both photos while the man’s face is visible in only 1.
And for those keeping score on the racial and body size fronts, there is only 1 dark-skinned model in the entire collection, and 1 model even remotely approaching “plus” size. But at least they are token-included. There are, of course, zero submissively-depicted men.
That’s why I feel neither inspired nor impressed by the supposed discussion this project purports to be hawking the blogosphere’s way. Far from being something novel, the homogeneity of these images are simply another all-too-obvious “hidden” standard: a male gaze coming from a woman’s eyes.
Admittedly, this is a topic I am touchy about. So I asked some lady friends for a sanity check. Clarisse Thorn, in her careful, gentle style, offered her own take:
When Rabbit recruited me for Lady Porn Day, I didn’t feel like her initial images were very diverse, so I suggested that she include different races and body types. She took the tip with good grace and added a couple of new images immediately, which I think shows her openness to having this conversation. It is definitely an ongoing conversation though—one where there are plenty more points to be made about diversity of body types and sexualities and what the “male gaze” versus “female gaze” really means—and one that I hope the bloggers and pornographers involved in Lady Porn Day will take seriously.
So, this is how Lady Porn Day’s publicity is easily perceived, at least by others sensitive to this issue. The only perceptible novelty I see in Lady Porn Day is that the male gaze is being proffered by a skinny white woman.
But don’t take my word for it. Take Rabbit’s:
It’s tough trying to explore porn as a girl. There just isn’t much lady-friendly stag.
That seems a funny statement coming from someone who asserted these overwhelmingly abundant and stereotypical images are her own masturbatory fodder:
the flyers are from my porn files, things I find hot!
The only way I see to make sense of her statement is to posit that, in her mind, the flyers are neither “what counts” about the project nor, presumably, are they (collectively) male-gazey precisely because she is a woman, which would at best betray a grave misunderstanding of the concept.
I am no woman, but my gaze skews far more “female” than Rabbit’s. If I exist this way, then surely it is not merely possible but acceptable for her to have a male gaze (regardless of how uncomfortable she may be with that fact). Hell, I even find women with male gazes attractive in their own right.
More to the point, however, which position is more sex-positive, even pro-porn? A position that essentializes one’s gaze based on one’s gender (e.g., women can’t have a male gaze because they are women) or a position that individuates both one’s body and one’s desires?
Don’t get me wrong. I’ve no beef (pun intended) with Rabbit’s personal preferences. And I think Rabbit’s goals, which she articulated quite well, are noble:
Girls aren’t encouraged to talk to each other about porn– the same way we aren’t encouraged to talk to each other about masturbation. In girl-world, too often we expect our first orgasm to come from a partner. Then we expect our Sex-and-The-City approved hitachi-orgasms to come from, well, our closed eyes. But porn is just another tool for your sexual growth. And according to statistics more women are watching porn than ever, growing stronger in our silence apparently.
[…]
At it’s heart, this is about celebrating pornography and masturbation. It is an opportunity for ladies of all genders (or however you identify) to open up a dialog: What is feminist porn? What is your history with porn? What do you find hot?
And ultimately it’s a dare to share your hot links. Because the more we can openly talk about porn and what we like, the more likely it is that porn for women will continue being made. And really guys have been sharing and recommending porn for ages! So help a sister out.
Yes, totally, talk about this! Moreover, if this is just your way of getting a conversation about the ubiquity of the male gaze going, Rabbit, even when it’s shared by some women, then more power to you. But don’t for one moment discount the effect that opening such a conversation in the way you did will have on it. That’s like going around organizing a conference about women in business by lining up a bunch of men to speak and then claiming that you made that decision because, despite being a woman, you just find men to be better at running businesses. And there, again, I would not question your individual opinion, but I would question what the fuck you’re doing organizing conferences about women in business that way.
Such behavior has many precedents among women. It simply means these women have more in common, on this particular point, with the stalwarts of the status-quo than with progressive innovators. (Phyllis Schlafly, anyone?) Or, as the inimitable Bitchy Jones put it, “This is a sad, sad situation, but maybe, just maybe, slightly more inclusion might be possible if you looked a bit further than your own fucking hard drive.”
This is far from flippant. When one tries to publicize a “conversation” about “lady porn,” is it so difficult to look beyond one’s own porn stash for publicity photos? And if that is just too (ahem) hard—hey, I understand talking about sex can be…distracting…sometimes—why discount the importance of the marketing material as if it has little or no effect on the resultant conversation? A conversation, by the way, explicitly acknowledged as having been hugely influenced by marketing material like Sex and the City and brand-name (Hitachi) orgasms.
At the very least, why not offer one’s graphic source files and encourage others to make more flyers, rather than proclaiming them “done”? (Update: Rabbit seems to have taken this suggestion. Good on her! Don’t let anyone tell you being harsh means you’ll lose your influence—I get told this all the time by “nice” people, and while they’re nice, they’re clearly wrong.)
I’m deeply saddened every time the sex-positive community turns a blind eye to its own minorities. It is not as though those of us with a “female gaze” are quiet about that fact, yet we are consistently underrepresented.
And, at the risk of sounding exasperated, I am tired of people who like to get off by looking at skinny white women—regardless of whether they are skinny white women themselves—orchestrating conversations about “porn for women.” I am tired of the preponderance of the male gaze in advertising material for sex-positive events and products. And most of all, I am tired of people conflating issues (like gender vs. gaze, in this case) to excuse their own privilege in spaces they say were expressly designed to have that very conversation.
That all said, hey, I acknowledge this particular conversation is just beginning. For all I know, maybe this disappointing opener is “all part of the plan.” So if nothing else, I hope this post serves as food for thought and maybe even a call to action to anyone considering getting involved.
Pingback
by Tweets that mention Women with male gazes: Why “Lady Porn Day†is neither inspiring, nor impressive « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed -- Topsy.com
19 Feb 2011 at 17:45
[…] This post was mentioned on Twitter by maymaym and Filament Magazine, Drew DeVeaux. Drew DeVeaux said: RT @maymaym: New blog post: #Women with male gazes: Why #LadyPornDay is neither inspiring, nor impressive http://maybemaimed.com/?p=2671 … […]
by Ms Naughty
19 Feb 2011 at 18:52
As someone who has made a living offering porn to women for 10 years and as a person who apparently too hegemonic to have a say in this (white, heterosexual, cisgender, middle class, capitalist etc) I too find the choice of images a little offputting.
The assumption that porn = naked women = porn is for men is something I’ve been dealing with the whole time. When I started out, the simple idea of offering up sexy images of naked men to women was unusual and still revolutionary. The right to look at peen still needs to be celebrated. So there’s part of me thinking… before you even get to diversity in ethnicity, sexuality, gender, etc… what about simply showing a bit of cock for once?
It reminds me about when the media were discussing porn for women a couple of years ago and the example site they gave was, perplexingly, Suicide Girls. For the journalists, porn could only ever be about naked women so porn for women must somehow be about “alternative” representations of other women. Enjoying images of naked men was gay, apparently. No concept of the female gaze.
That said, I’m glad the conversation is happening, it’s always good to talk about this stuff. I shall have to blog about it myself, even though I haven’t been invited to participate.
by maymay
19 Feb 2011 at 19:07
I can, obviously, appreciate where your comment is coming from, Ms. Naughty, but a few things you said made me suspect you missed part of my point, or else I failed to articulate myself clearly. Let me try to correct that.
Yes, exactly—and that’s actually the point I thought I was focusing on myself. I think Rabbit is sensitive to the issues of intersectionality Madame Thursday’s excellent post raised, at least if her writing rather than her artistic direction is any indication. What puzzles me is precisely what puzzled you: where’s the cock?
My understanding of Lady Porn Day was that any self-identified “lady,” which I presume includes you, is welcome to suggest additional pornography for inclusion among the selection of Lady Porn Day links that Rabbit will publish on her website. (I think you just need to tweet links with the hashtag “#LadyPornDay” to be noticed.)
So, I wouldn’t take the lack of a personal invitation from Rabbit to you as a disincentive to participate. It’s more likely the case that Rabbit simply is not aware of you. And if you show cock in your porn, and if Rabbit likes looking at, well, not-cock, then I wouldn’t be surprised she’s never heard of you. Which actually goes to further emphasize my point in this blog post, come to think of it.
by Beka
19 Feb 2011 at 21:06
You know, even as a lady who enjoys the other ladies, I… don’t really find those images all that arousing. I mean, obviously, it’s a matter of personal preference, but it DOES seem to me that there should be some variety, and some cock. *sigh*
On the note of sex-positive tumblrs, though, I’m sure you’ve been linked to Sex is not the Enemy, but the sheer variety in couples, body types, race, and the fact that it’s all so REAL just makes me happy as a clam. It’s the only porn (because it IS porn, for me anyway) that I’ve ever found to actually turn me on and make me smile. :)
by soukup
19 Feb 2011 at 21:09
Longtime lurker here popping in with a quick question. Hope it’s not a dumb thing to ask, but I’m just not really sure what’s so “male” about Rabbit’s tastes. I agree that in her place I probably would have put a little more variety into her selections, and I completely feel you that her project could use some help — no quarrel there. But as weird as it seems to me, I know plenty of women who have a taste for skinny white chicks, or who at least admit to enjoying porn which focuses on them. What’s male about that, exactly?
by Ms Naughty
19 Feb 2011 at 21:12
Thanks for the clarification MayMay. I should add, I’ve been offline a lot recently, have only just heard of this Lady Porn Day thing. I will blog about it because I always like to see women’s porn (and women’s experiences of porn) get some attention – even if it’s negative or critical. The more dialogue the better it will be.
by Airial
19 Feb 2011 at 21:56
This is a great post and it mirrors my own reaction when I was invited to blog for Lady Porn Day too.
I really agree with your sentiments and logical analysis. When I clicked through the attached images and was not at all aroused, impressed or inspired. I was like, oh, well, ok, so this is a mainstream kind of thing.
The caveat is that I can pick any kind of porn I want to write about for the project. I’ll be using the Crash Pad Series for mine. That way I get to tell my own story of how much I enjoy those erotic films. If I was only supposed to write about the images offered, then I would most likely have had to write that while I do enjoy porn, that kind of porn doesn’t do anything for me, and give all the reasons why.
by remittancegirl
20 Feb 2011 at 01:30
Well, firstly, if I wanted lesbian porn, I’d go find it. The bottom line is, what makes people think women only get turned on by, primarily, other women’s bodies? I want porn that shows males, above the age of adolescence, please, WITH erections. I don’t want to have gay porn fobbed off on me as women’s porn, or male porn where the woman looks like she’s having a vaguely good time, but wearing lucite platforms, fake breasts and sporting dangerous looking manicures.
I want pictures of hetero men, naked, aroused. Period.
Why is that too much to ask for?
by Dae
20 Feb 2011 at 07:45
@ soukup –
I also know at least a few women with a taste for skinny white women (myself at times included), but here’s my (white, cis, bi – YMMV) take on your question.
For the moment, let’s take the gender off the gaze and just consider it a point of view. I’ll get back to gender in a bit. This type of porn caters to a particular point of view. Obviously there are many, many other types of bodies and people in the world that are considered attractive by various standards. So there’s this point of view (enjoying porn of skinny white women), and it also happens to be vastly overrepresented in mainstream pornography, relative to the sorts of people in the world. The easiest illustration is Maymay’s point that men are featured relatively rarely, and it’s even more rare for them to be emphasized.
In mainstream society, women aren’t supposed to like porn. (And a lot of ignorant people think that in fact, women categorically don’t like it.) Sex is bad, it makes you dirty, and women are supposed to be “pure.” (And if you’ve been a lurker here for a while, you’ll have seen that submissive, bisexual men aren’t really even ‘supposed to’ exist, hence Maymay’s particular frustration.) As a result, very much in past decades, and even today the mainstream porn industry predominantly caters to the socially acceptable customer – white, cis-gendered, heterosexual males.
That’s why porn of Skinny White Women caters to the “male” gaze. It’s (mostly) created by (hetero, cis) men, with their own demographic’s desires in mind. The fact that some women also appreciate it does not change the fact of who it is targeted to, and I’d also argue that there’s quite a bit of selection bias at play in what opinions about porn you hear from women*. If you cast your net a bit wider for what women would like to see in porn, you’ll see (http://malesubmissionart.com/post/168794536/a-naked-man-lays-on-a-bed-next-to-a-video-camera – as Maymay linked in his post) that straight women wanting to see Skinny White Women are very much the exception rather than the rule.
*Since women are Not Supposed To Like Porn, and mainstream porn is created for cis-het-men, a lot of dissenting female voices have long since found their point of view unrepresented and unwelcome, and given up on the whole damn thing. Just having a conversation about what you want to see in porn is a social risk for women in a great many circles, so those of us that do join the conversation are those that have enough invested in the idea to want to talk about it. Part of getting invested in it is not being turned off so completely by what’s already out there that we agree that porn is For Men.
by Wilhelmina
20 Feb 2011 at 10:02
First of all, I have to say I agree with you an almost all counts. I was invited to participate in Lady Porn Day (and I said that I would – I’ll get to that later), but I have to admit I was disappointed when I saw the banners for all the reasons you just mentioned. Having banners for “Lady Porn Day” largely featuring pictures of typically attractive women seemed pretty ironic to me. And then the one (?) picture of men is kind of boring. It doesn’t seem sexually charged to me at all. This is why I’m not going to use the banners in the posts I’ll be writing.
I take issue with the title of the entire thing, too, to be honest – Lady Porn Day – to me “lady” is a word that has a strong femme and feminine slant. I would rather Rabbit had used something more neutral and exclusive, like “Feminist Porn” or “Women’s Porn.” I identify as a woman, but I’m not sure I identify as a lady, and I see that being true for a lot of people as well. I don’t know if a butch woman would comfortably participate in something called “Lady Porn Day,” for instance.
That said, I am still participating in the event, and here’s why. While it definitely has its flaws, I think it’s more useful for me to be involved as opposed to not. By being involved I can create more discourse about the topics I want to see more discourse about – yes, topics like how there aren’t enough images out there of men being the “object of desire” and how the media is saturated with pictures of hot, conventionally pretty women.
I can’t speak for Rabbit, but her choice in making those pictures “fliers” seems like a bad or poorly informed decision to me than an intentionally malicious one. She probably would have been better off emailing out and asking people to submit pictures in order to have a more diverse selection. While I don’t think there would have been anything wrong with her posting pictures and saying “this is what I find hot”, I think using those pictures to represent “Lady Porn Day” as a whole is quite problematic.
Finally, I’m going to call you out on being just a little narrow-minded and judgmental here.
“And, at the risk of sounding exasperated, I am tired of people who like to get off by looking at skinny white women—regardless of whether they are skinny white women themselves—orchestrating conversations about “porn for women.—
I understand. Really. I’m fed up of not seeing what I want to see in porn, I’m fed up of how homogenous it all is, and I’m fed up of how difficult it is to find people who share my feelings and tastes. However, I don’t think it helps to bash people for liking things that are “mainstream.” People can’t help what they like – or what they are corralled into liking.
by Kay
20 Feb 2011 at 12:51
I think you make valid points here about the lack of diversity in the images and their being male-gaze oriented.
However, your complaint that the Lady Porn Day flyers contain zero submissively-depicted men led me to click through to Male Submission Art. I only scrolled back maybe 10 pages or so, until late August, but noticed that the images there overwhelmingly depict white, thin, able-bodied men.
This isn’t intended to be a tu quoque argument, it’s just meant to be food for thought: could the reasons that the Lady Porn Day images primarily depict white, thin, able-bodied people be similar to the reasons that Male Submission Art does so? I see the two projects as having similar goals, to open dialogue around porn consumed by groups that are often overlooked (women, submissive men). Maybe this is all that’s currently out there for these groups? “Conventional†bodies? Or maybe these are the images these groups are drawn to? Because no one escapes the influence of societal notions of “attractiveness�
Also, I would say the images on Male Submission Art are as dominant-gaze oriented as the images on Lady Porn Day are male-gaze oriented. (But I also think identifying images as anything-gaze is a somewhat subjective exercise). I certainly understand that the male-gaze has a wider and more damaging reach, so perhaps we should be more skeptical of Lady Porn Day’s embrace of it. But, if we can accept that the porn that naturally appeals to submissive men is images of men being submissive, couldn’t the porn that naturally appeals to sexual women be of women being sexual? An image doesn’t need to be from the perspective of its intended audience to be “hot,†it can also be from the perspective of that audience’s object of desire and that can make it “hot.â€
I see all the same problems with the Lady Porn Day project that you see. I just noticed that your project hasn’t escaped those pitfalls either. I’d be curious to hear you explore why this is.
by Kitta
20 Feb 2011 at 13:48
I’m an asexual female, and have to admit, the images do little to interest me. This isn’t to imply that I don’t look at pornography, or that I don’t have my own masturbatory material – asexuality simply means I’m not sexually attracted to other people. If anything, this makes me rather more likely to indulge my fantasy life as I see fit – but none of these images touch on the form of ‘pornography’ I’m most likely to use to do so.
I read. Most of what I read and I write is yaoi (male/male sexual replationships). Most of the people (not all) in the communities where this material is shared are female, so this would imply that yes, gay porn is just as appealing to many females as lesbian porn is to many men. While we do have our artists, the majority of us are writers and readers – the visual element is less relevant because we are capable of visualising for ourselves what we want. Before that, I read a lot of male/female erotica from sites such as Ellora’s Cave. Again, it was written porn, not pictures and videos. Rabbit Write talks about reaching orgams ‘with our eyes closed’ – but what is wrong about that? Why does pornography require a visual element?
Interestingly, there is a definite contrast between male- and female-authored sex stories. On sites where the authorship is predominantly male, the focus seems to be on the mechanics of fucking and getting off. Female-authored stories are more likely to be less crude in their language (purple prose is a real turn-off for me, and more likely to make me laugh than anything else) and focused more on sensuality. There’s also a stronger focus on emotional responses, which probably harks back to the most common form of pornography available to women of my mother’s generations – the romance novel, a genre that was for decades solely female territory, and the first place I ever encountered explicit sex. I would like to see discussion of this, but Lady Porn Day doesn’t look like that forum.
by maymay
20 Feb 2011 at 13:50
Thanks for your comment, Kay, but many of your assumptions are wrong so your analysis of this issue and of Male Submission Art is flawed. Here is where you’re mistaken:
You’re correct that the majority of images on Male Submission Art depict white, thin, able-bodied men. You only hint at the case for it, but Madame Thursday already made this point: the majority of sexualized images—even the rarer ones such as the ones of submissive men—only depict white, thin, able-bodied people. There are, nevertheless, a number of trans bodies, as well as people of color (and one of the links to Male Submission Art in my post actually above is actually a link to a person of color), and even simply queer folks. I also have a lot of trouble finding images of older as opposed to younger men, although I do try. Sadly, any project featuring pornography that does not also create pornography is going to be at the mercy of the available porn out there, and Male Submission Art, you are correct to say, is no different from Lady Porn Day in that case.
But production or not is neither here nor there.
I’ve been very careful not to critique the content submitted for inclusion in the Lady Porn Day link selection, nor the hypothetical conversation that will result from it, only Rabbit’s invitation. Male Submission Art had no imagery in its almost non-existent publicity material, which, even if you do believe the projects have similar goals (see below) strengthens my point: invitations effect the resulting conversation—using visuals to invite people to a conversation about visuals, especially in such a “subjective” matter as this, typically embeds a systemic bias unless you’re very careful about depicting a diverse representation of said visuals in said invitation. But that is hard if not impossible when the point of the project is to accrue more visuals on the premise that you have very few to start with.
Rabbit put herself in a very stupid catch-22, and I’m disappointed because she’s smarter than that and it was pointed out to her, if Clarisse’s comments to me can be used as an inference guide.
I can see how you’d get that perception, but I think the reality is different. Pornographers already acknowledge that submissive men consume a metric shit ton of porn, so to say that we are a group “often overlooked” is incorrect. The issue is not that submissive men are overlooked, the issue is that submissive men are treated very much like women in the pornography consumer market: we are given one very small sliver of the kind of porn that, taken as a whole, submissive men enjoy. Women get other skinny white women. Submissive men get dominant women. Sure, some skinny white women like looking at other white women. Sure, some submissive men like looking at dominant women.
Ignoring the obvious sexism (only women are to be viewed) for a moment, do you see how stupid that assumption is?
Also, for the record, Male Submission Art did not begin with anywhere near the noble goals that Rabbit is launching Lady Porn Day. Male Submission Art began as a way for me to get people to send me porn I would like—I am not ashamed to be self-serving. Yes, it later evolved into a tool for a discussion of male submissive sexuality, true, but even then it was never intended to be anything other than my bully pulpit. That’s miles away from the spin Rabbit put on Lady Porn Day: a “conversation.” Male Submission Art purposely doesn’t even allow comments.
I’d call most of them submissive-gaze.
I did: “surely it is not merely possible but acceptable for [Rabbit] to have a male gaze.” And I did precisely because I’m making the point that Rabbit and I are the same in our respective “gaze-orientation,” if you will: we like seeing ourselves reflected in the porn we enjoy.
My whole point with this post, though, is that not everyone feels this way. I am making, in other words, the opposite argument from the one I’m making on Male Submission Art, and I’m doing it in a hugely different context. The context these arguments are made in is apples and oranges. And, yes, that matters.
In other words, in this post, I’m making the case that coupling one’s expectations of what gaze one will have based on another characteristic, such as gender or sexual orientation, is as restricting and presumptive as coupling one’s expectations of what body you’re attracted to based on your own genitals. In Male Submission Art, I’m making the case that many submissive men have a gaze-orientation which is more like Rabbit’s than Remittance Girl’s. In neither place am I making any argument that presumes one kind of gaze in any particular group is “natural” for anyone but me, is the norm, or is even the slight majority.
I hope this clarifies things. For the record, as annoyed as I sound (because, yeah, it’s hard for me to stay level-headed about this very emotionally charged subject), I thought your comment was awesome.
by maymay
20 Feb 2011 at 13:55
Actually, no, maybe I wouldn’t, maybe you’re right. Most of them are dominant-gaze. Some of them are submissive gaze.
This is an interesting terminological issue.
Hmm….
by Kay
20 Feb 2011 at 20:00
Thank you for your response. I actually thought it was level-headed and it does clarify.
I see the differences. Male Submission Art did not set out with lofty goals of starting a conversation. It provides a missing subset of porn, as a supplement, while Rabbit is presenting a subset as if it’s all-encompassing of The Porn Women Enjoy.
I agree with you that her invitation will set the boundaries of the resulting conversation.
I have sympathy for how Rabbit backed herself into this corner though. It makes sense to me that one might try to open a dialogue about “what women enjoy in porn†by presenting the images that turn her on personally.
I wonder if a disclaimer would have been sufficient: “This is what turns me on! But it doesn’t have to do it for you! Show me yours!†Or maybe the only way to set the stage for a truly inclusive conversation is to have a diverse invite.
Also, I understand that you are only critiquing the content selected for the invitation and not the content of the project as a whole, but aren’t both are limited by what’s available and skewed by what’s most abundant? Just as production affects the kinds of images we see on Male Submission Art, I think it affected the images Rabbit chose for her invite. Could she have as diverse as we would have liked to have seen? (I mean, of course she could have. But could she have been so diverse while still fitting the aesthetic she had in mind? I get a retro-y vibe from these photos. And they are all profesionally taken.)
Also, we agree it’s “acceptable†to be turned on by images like those in the flyers. But I have to wonder if we’d be having this conversation if those images were less heteronormative and male-gaze oriented, but still limited in another direction – all queer, all kinky, etc.
Then again, if the invite was limited in an “alternative†way, maybe there would be less need for this conversation because the flyers would hint at an open-mindedness.
Ok, sorry, if this got stream of consciousness. I’m still mulling this over.
Also, just before I clicked submit I noticed that Rabbit seems to have added some flyers with tied up men. Maybe this is all moot now.
by maymay
20 Feb 2011 at 20:12
Yes, Kay, perhaps that would have “helped.”
Or, as I mentioned, not to use imagery in the invite itself, yourself, if your point is to be inviting imagery, that is.
Yes, both are. So? That’s another neither here nor there point, which is further showcased by the fact she could have done it, if she had thought to do so:
Yeah, that’s cool, and I’ve already updated the post, above, to mention that awesomeness. Interestingly, I think at least one image of a guy tied up that is used in a Lady Porn Day banner was sourced from Male Submission Art, and yet (as of this writing) I see no link to Male Submission Art. But I could be wrong about that so I’m not fussing over it.
Hardly. I give it one, maybe two months before at least one other sex-positive event, publicity campaign, or similar occurrence reenacts the same exact problem as was highlighted in this post. The overwhelming frequency with which our own supposedly “inclusive” community behaves with such blinding audacity is easy to spot—if you open your eyes to it.
by maymay
20 Feb 2011 at 21:59
LOL! Okay, then, Wilhelmina. :) “Call me out” all you like, but I find judgement, much like most other things, to be a tool worth wielding mindfully.
I think the resolute and widespread disownment of judgement as a tool capable of enhancing a positive, respectful discourse within and about the sex-positive community is more a result of a knee-jerk judgement about judgement, or of the YKINMKBYKIOK orthodoxy, than any thoughtful reflection.
by Trusthynenemy
20 Feb 2011 at 22:33
I think, while judgement *can* be something that enhances positive respectful discourse, often it is something that is used to shut down discussion. When i think I judgement, I tend to think of the kind of things courts settle: where they take the issue, make a decision, and say that’s it. And yes, in the US we have the appeals system that makes it less of a shut down, but it still is. ~shrugs~
I admit that upon reading this post, I had the same thought that Kay did: most of the images on Male Submission Art are of one body type, and while there are the occasional exceptions, and you tend to make a point of pointing them out, they are still vastly from one pov. And yes, your goal with Male Submission Art started out differently, and probably still remains different, but I think given her willing-ness to change what was presented, your judgement about the initial invite is still harsh.
This is your blog, your space to write, and thus things will come out as you put them. I think, particularly given another recent interaction that you had, that I would submit that perhaps it is possible to have the same discussions you are having, without the same degree of judgmental calling out you do. It’s also possible that it takes the aggressive calling out for things to change. I don’t know.
On a random side note, your post (and probably the links I read following it) also led me to have an interesting look at what *is* out there in the video side of male submissive porn (at least, on youporn). And it was…. interesting. Men in masks, a lot. Most of it was labeled as if the man were still in a more dominant position. And it was overwhelmingly the same thing. With the same stereotypes. I don’t look at a whole lot of videos in my own erotic searchings, so I can’t entirely speak to the differences here, but I feel like the presentation was much less inviting of the submissive male than what I have seen out there for the submissive female.
by Wilhelmina
20 Feb 2011 at 22:35
I have to say that wielding judgment is still something I’m learning how to do. Until very recently I spent most of my time preferring to keep the peace and resolve conflict… except that doing those things doesn’t make change happen.
by maymay
20 Feb 2011 at 23:31
This is getting pretty far afield, but I think it is still interesting enough to mention, and I’ll keep it brief:
Well,
KayTrusthynenemy, legal documents like that are also called “opinions.” Unsurprisingly, then, the word “judgement” also means “an opinion formed by judging something.” I am a big fan of opinions. My life would not be worth living if I did not have some of my own. I find folks who disown judgement are profoundly uninteresting creatures. ;)Me too, Wilhelmina. :) It’s not an easy skill to master.
by Tiara the Merch Girl
21 Feb 2011 at 17:28
I’m someone who was invited by Rabbit White to participate in Lady Porn Day, and I am a female queer migrant minority (of Bangladeshi heritage & Malaysian origin currently living in Australia). I didn’t see the flyers when I signed up, but when the option came to provide photos for flyers I contributed one of my own.
I found the timing quite apt as I had just participated in an Erotic Screen and Sound conference here in Brisbane last week and did a presentation on the difficulties of finding relatable images and people in porn, erotica, and other sex-positive media & performance (I’m a performance artist with a background in burlesque). There are definitely issues of representation, and it doesn’t help that a lot of the sites purporting diversity really only want a certain look – which excludes a lot of gender, race, and attractiveness portrayals.
But the flip side is that it is very difficult and quite unsafe for someone from a minority to even just be sexual in the first place, let alone perform in porn or create porn. I went through two months of daily grief by my parents for a tame photo of me in a corset! People have been estranged from families, lost jobs, had their -families- suffer, been jailed and fined, just for not living up to conventional standards of sexuality – and woe betide you if you dare to be out in the open about it. Even being in a more liberal country like USA or Australia doesn’t always help, not when people talk and communities maintain close ties – the family griefing happened because some distant relatives in Dhaka found the photos and blabbed about them to my parents in Malaysia. This thing crosses borders!
When you come from a culture that prizes collectivism over individualism and where what you do is not just a reflection on yourself but also your family and heritage, when you’re judged not just as “Oh So and So likes/doesn’t like this” but “All South Asian girls are into XYZ”, when you’re already finding it difficult to find a job or get a more “normal” lifestyle due to residency or nationality, it can be VERY INTIMIDATING to have to be the “first penguin” – the one that starts it all, the one that sacrifices themselves so that others may feel more confident in taking the risk. I have had so many South Asians tell me “I wish I could do what you do but my parents would kill me”. There’s a desire to do it, just not a whole lot of confidence and courage – and it’s hardly their fault.
So you don’t have the space to represent yourself, and you’re not encouraged by how all the other sites don’t seem to have people like you; when you call them out on it they say “then make your own!” but then the risks for you are higher than theirs and the payoff isn’t necessarily worth it. Catch-22? Who will go first?
Here’s my contribution to Lady Porn Day:
http://blog.themerchgirl.net/post/3432979901
And here’s my Erotics conference presentation where I talk about this sort of thing:
http://prezi.com/e3v7fic94cld/not-your-exrotic/
by Quiet Riot Girl
22 Feb 2011 at 10:13
I am interested to note Maymaym suggesting he could have a ‘female gaze’ and some women a ‘male gaze’. This rather challenges the point of things like Filament Magazine which is all about women having a female gaze, because they are women.
I think RG saying she wants pictures of hetero men is funny. How can we determine the sexual orientation of models, why does it matter, and whose business is it what they get up to when they are off duty, or even if they are really all that aroused by what they do on set?
by Quiet Riot Girl
22 Feb 2011 at 10:29
Link to the filament article. I think that if men can have a female gaze, this challenges the concept of porn aimed at women, as promoted by Filament and Ms Naughty for example.
http://filamentmag.livejournal.com/44419.html
Pingback
by Tweets that mention Women with male gazes: Why “Lady Porn Day†is neither inspiring, nor impressive « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed -- Topsy.com
22 Feb 2011 at 16:51
[…] This post was mentioned on Twitter by maymaym, e.. e. said: RT @maymaym: Comment from @quietriot_girl on #gaze sets up my next blog post perfectly http://ur1.ca/3bbge Yup—I just problematized "#po … […]
Pingback
by Lady Porn Day: Pre-Game Commentary | Missmaggiemayhem's Blog
22 Feb 2011 at 17:09
[…] by Rabbit White. Even before the project got out the gate it began inspiring conversation: Maymay and Remittance Girl both commented on the graphics produced by rabbit to help promote the event. […]
Pingback
by Breaking Pornography’s Fourth Wall: Erotic satisfaction as a function of gaze « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
22 Feb 2011 at 22:09
[…] was wrong when I wrote that Lady Porn Day was “neither inspiring nor impressive.” It did inspire something. Specifically, aside from my own post on the subject, it inspired this […]
by Melusina
23 Feb 2011 at 03:00
I have to say the use of the word “lady” turned me off even before I saw the images. I ‘aint no lady and I resent being labelled as one simply because I identify as female. Or maybe she wasn’t including me and people like me in her Lady Porn day?
Thank you for this article. I think you make some important and valid points.
by Wilhelmina
26 Feb 2011 at 08:23
As a half-Filipino Hong-Konger, I’d just like to heartily agree with Tiara the Merch Girl :|
Pingback
by We are all victims, even the revolutionaries « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
20 Apr 2011 at 20:47
[…] they say I don’t. It manifests in fantasies I’ve learned to like because they are sexist. It manifests in what porn exists, and in what porn doesn’t—and in their explanations of […]
Pingback
by Link Love: Inspirations | The Andro-Aperture Project
19 Jun 2011 at 17:43
[…] of thought-provoking, hard-hitting, angry and accurate observations about sex-positivity, that being a woman doesn’t necessarily mean offering a female gaze, and how erotic satisfaction relates to the gaze generally. He links to a lot of great stuff, and […]
by Najakcharmer
03 Jul 2012 at 23:24
There is one single porn site on the Internet that does anything for me, and that is Male Submission Art. There just is not much else out there that is at all sexy to me. I’m not into looking at women, and traditionally depicted men don’t do much for me unless they are showing me their beauty and desirability in submission, being offered as objects of gaze rather than as consumers.
Male Submission Art is the single and only porn site that actually gets it and offers attractive, submissive male images for MY gaze. I’m happy it exists, but sad that it’s literally the only site that seems to get it.