I was wrong when I wrote that Lady Porn Day was “neither inspiring nor impressive.” It did inspire something. Specifically, aside from my own post on the subject, it inspired this comment from Kay:
if we can accept that the porn that naturally appeals to submissive men is images of men being submissive, couldn’t the porn that naturally appeals to sexual women be of women being sexual? An image doesn’t need to be from the perspective of its intended audience to be “hot,†it can also be from the perspective of that audience’s object of desire and that can make it “hot.â€
This comment got me thinking. Even after I responded to Kay in the comment thread, I kept thinking about it. I thought about it so much that I did some Google searching and some blog surfing trying to see if anyone else had ever had the sorts of thoughts I was suddenly having, but I couldn’t find anything relevant.
So, in light of the absence of something to link to, I want to share some of what’s in my head.
On Porn’s “Right Stuff”
Let’s begin with a question: what determines one’s satisfaction with some specific pornographic content?
When I think about why I enjoy some porn and not some other porn, a few obvious things jump out at me. Everyone I’ve asked who’s willing to answer the question also seems able to identify particulars of porn they like that contributes to their enjoyment. They may be physically attracted to the models in visual works, they may enjoy the character development in an erotic story, or they may find the depicted circumstance an exciting prospect to one day explore themselves. Often, one’s distaste for or affinity with a single pornographic image, story, or other artifact is most adequately explained by a combination of these and other factors.
Although details vary between individuals, one observation seems universal: everyone likes some porn, and dislikes some other porn. No one seems to like all porn, though many people certainly have less discriminating tastes than others. At the same time, no one seems to dislike all porn, either.1
Some data on people’s enjoyment of porn is easy to find, although most of it is necessarily self-reported and anecdotal.2 Take the headline poster from the original set of 12 Lady Porn Day flyers, as an example. I described this image as “A skinny white woman wearing nothing but a white fur-lined coat with big blonde hair and big glasses baring it all in a public venue.”
Personally, I find the woman attractive, both aesthetically and sexually. I think she’s beautiful (even though I think she’s dangerously close to hitting the unattractively too-skinny point for my tastes) and I think she’s rockin’ obvious sex appeal. To put it crudely, yes, I’d do her. However, I’m not particularly drawn to the image in general and I’m especially disinterested as a pornography consumer; there is little beyond the aforementioned aesthetic and sexual attraction that holds my interest.
Some might argue that aesthetic and sexual attraction of this sort is what defines “good porn.” The traditional pornographer’s formula seems to be:
- find conventionally pretty people who fit contemporary standards of human physical aesthetics (e.g., “skinny white women”),
- place them in sexually suggestive or overtly sexual situations (e.g., “baring it all in a public venue”), and
- voila: good porn!
The assertion Rabbit, Lady Porn Day’s host, made that images like this one are “things I find hot” may at first suggest this formula is fool-proof. But if this were such an open-and-shut case, why did the same image get the following response from Beka?
You know, even as a lady who enjoys the other ladies, I… don’t really find those images all that arousing. I mean, obviously, it’s a matter of personal preference[…].
The image got an even more severe response from Remittance Girl:3
if I wanted lesbian porn, I’d go find it. The bottom line is, what makes people think women only get turned on by, primarily, other women’s bodies? I want porn that shows males […] I want pictures of hetero men, naked, aroused. Period.
Rabbit, Beka, Remittance Girl, and I each had differing responses to the image. If all it took for porn to be considered “good” were conventionally attractive models in sexual situations, all of us should have found this image “hot.” That (obviously incorrect) formulation divorces the viewer from judging the quality of the porn, yet we intuitively understand that pornography is theatrical; it is not only intended to be viewed, it is interpreted by the viewer, as all classes of art are. Therefore, we must consider the viewer’s perception in determining the quality of any given pornographic artifact. Nowhere is the phrase “beauty is in the eye of the beholder” more applicable than in the study of art—or porn.
If we just factored in the sexual orientation of the viewer, then the only classes of people who we’d expect not to find that picture hot are (exclusively) gay men and (exclusively) straight women. However, plenty of (admittedly anecdotal) evidence suggests that there are many straight women who are aroused by sexualized imagery of women and would agree such images of other women are “hot.”4 Clearly, what makes good porn “good” and bad porn “bad” is a complex topic.
Perhaps an understanding of the issues at hand can not be achieved through expositions of a purely sexual nature, but rather through a semiotic study of the viewing of the material. Otherwise, it should have been easier to find porn that is universally liked (or disliked). In other words, for you to understand why a person likes some porn but not some other porn, you must first understand the significance they place on the porn itself.
Sexual gazing: Objectifying to Embodying
In sexuality theories, discourses on gaze mingle with cinematic theory (i.e., media studies, specifically feminist film theory), which is where the notion of the male gaze first appeared. Put simply, a gaze identifies a viewer, or a gazer. When a woman’s curves linger on-screen, as they so often do in cinema, or when a picture of, say, a “skinny white woman…baring it all” is shown, as it so often is in pornography, the viewer is commonly—and often rightly—assumed to be a heterosexual male.5
However, this conceptualization of gaze is limiting. Knowing who the gazer is tells us very little about how they are gazing. Part of understanding a person’s pornographic tastes relies on understanding whether their gaze is objectifying or embodying. An objectifying gaze is one in which the gazer—the consumer of the pornographic artifact—imagines themselves as observing the model in a pornographic image, while an embodying gaze is one in which they imagine themselves as being the model.
The gazing behavior a consumer of pornography exhibits can be conceived of as a gaze orientation, similar to a sexual orientation. In 1948, the Kinsey scale6 graded sexual behavior along an ordered series of points from exclusively heterosexual (0) to exclusively homosexual (6). The grades numbered 1 through 5 represented the various degrees of bisexual behavior:
Imagine a similar scale as Kinsey’s, except instead of sexual orientation, we’re charting gaze orientation. We can call it the gaze scale.
On one end of the scale, just like sexual orientation, we place hetero-gazing (or, using more cinematic and less sexological terminology, subject-identifying) behavior (0) and on the other we place homo-gazing (or, object-identifying) behavior (6), with bi-gazing behavior in between. As the etymological prefixes imply, hetero-gazing/subject-identifying behavior indicates a preference for the viewed object to be different from the gazer, while homo-gazing/object-identifying behavior indicates a preference for the viewed object to be the same (or at least similar in respect to sociosexual makeup) as the gazer.7
As a framework for discussing the subjective satisfaction someone may experience from consuming porn, adding this sociosexual concept to the way we think neatly explains differing reactions to pornographic artifacts that can’t be articulated any other way. Since a person’s gaze orientation is a distinct facet of their sociosexual makeup, any given homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual, or asexual person can be any given degree of homo-gazing, bi-gazing, hetero-gazing, or non-gazing (a-gazing?).
For example, some straight women may enjoy stereotypical mainstream porn because they “identify with”8 the woman “getting fucked.” Or, given an image with a traditional “male gaze” such as the one above, some (heterosexual) women may enjoy it because they have conformed to hegemonic cultural ideals in which the female form is inherently sexualized; they have become their own sexual object. In each case, these can be described as homo-gazing women.
In much the same way, this formulation explains my significant affinity for pornography focusing on male-submissive objects. Male Submission Art is an intentionally homo-gazing project because I’m featuring submissive masculinity and I identify as a submissive man myself—arguably a highly narcissistic behavior. In other words, the experience of strong homo-gazing/object-identifying behavior while consuming porn can be described as the experience of desiring to be desired—an experience no less “natural” for men than women, despite the insistence of simplistic, gender essentialist analyses.
Meanwhile, the traditional “male gaze” in straight porn presumes the (male) consumer is both heterosexual and hetero-gazing. What else explains the pernicious idea that men “identify with” the male actors when their most prominent identifying feature—their face—is so often cinematically decapitated? What else explains that even these (exclusively) heterosexual men rarely, if ever, take issue with the proliferation of purposefully visible giant cocks? Showing the cock owner’s face challenges the suspension of disbelief necessary for straight, hetero-gazing men to identify with the well endowed subject, reducing the efficacy of the porn’s theatrics.
Sexism’s Influence on Gaze
Using the framework provided by gaze orientation, I can also articulate the intense discomfort of feeling as though I need to “change the genders around in my head” when I look at most porn, same as many (heterosexual, hetero-gazing) women do. Such gaze dysphoria is more evident upon examinations of asymmetric power. For example, in her analysis of the 1980’s TV show Cagney & Lacey, Danae Clark succinctly describes sexism’s influence:
Dominant theories of spectatorship maintain that traditional (male-governed) texts are founded on a subject/object dichotomy that places a male subject in control of the ‘gaze’ and positions the woman as object of his look. Since the woman becomes the passive raw material for the active gaze and visual pleasure of the male, the female viewer’s possibilities for identification become extremely limited; she must choose between adopting the voyeuristic (sadistic) position of the male subject or the masochistic position of the female object.
Clark recognizes the quagmire that power differentials along gendered lines (i.e., sexism) places on “the female viewer’s possibilities of identification,” implying that neither the position of the male subject nor that of the female object is desirable for female viewers. However, she seems constrained by theoretically coupling active and sadistic behaviors with maleness; the “voyeuristic (sadistic) position” is desired by some women. To escape this constraint, we can be aided by Dr. Staci Newmahr’s insights on BDSM play9 in her recently published book, Playing on the Edge: Sadomasochism, Risk, and Intimacy.10
It is impossible to understand [archetypes of topping and bottoming] outside gender; they are themselves gender stereotypes. Beyond performances of powerful and powerless circumstances, they are active representations of being powerful and powerless, or of victimizing and being victimized. Topping and bottoming are both active processes undertaken to and as engagement in performances of victimization and power differentials. This is not to claim that these performances are therefore anti-feminist or otherwise philosophically objectionable[…]. There is, as SM researchers and practitioners have long insisted, an important distinction between victimization and consensual engagement in performances of victimization. Nonetheless, while the latter precludes the former, it is the existence and cultural coding of victimization that gives these performances meaning. In this sense, we can explore these performances within their gendered contexts, yet move away from the categories of “woman” and “man” as the salient hermeneutic constructs.
The existence of BDSM players who identify as dominant women or submissive men has long problematized socially conservative feminist discourse precisely because it challenges the hermeneutic constructs on which conservative social ideology depends. Similarly, the existence of homo-gazing/object-identifying women challenges the “male gaze’s” corollary. Flipping Clark’s statement on its head, if the “female gaze” can be understood as a subject/object dichotomy that places a female subject in control of the ‘gaze’ and positions the man as object of her look, then this female viewer is implicitly cast as hetero-gazing/subject-identifying. A (masochistic) woman whose satisfaction is derived from empathizing with other female objects suffers the reciprocal quagmire as the one Clark described.
This suggests that the efforts of various counter-culture pornographers, notably many creating “porn for women,” employ the same flawed dialectic as mainstream pornographers producing “male gaze” iconography. Rejecting this false dichotomy—adopting a both/and mindset—offers both emotional comfort (in validating common gaze-dysphoric experiences) and a sexologically and psychoanalytically sound explanation for, as an example, why some women find Filament Magazine sexy while others don’t. Notions of erotic satisfaction derived from consuming pornography are obviously best explored as a composite of the pornographic artifact itself and the experience of its consumption, but the atomic sociosexual parts engaged in such an experience have not yet been fully enumerated.
Just as Newmahr suggests we “explore [BDSM] performances within their gendered contexts, yet move away from the categories of ‘woman’ and ‘man’ as the salient hermeneutic constructs,” I suggest moving away from the categories of “male” and “female” when exploring the experience of porn consumption. Put another way, if you’ve ever longed for terminology that explains the difference between looking at porn and thinking “I want to fuck that girl” or thinking “I want to be that girl,” perhaps expressing the latter in terms of a gaze attraction, rather than a sexual attraction or a gender identity, will be useful.
When it comes to the consumption and creation of pornographic artifacts (viewing imagery, writing erotica, etc.), but notably not when it comes to patronizing and providing erotic labor (soliciting a prostitute, doing escort work, etc.), I posit that gaze orientation is the most significant, or at least unconsidered, hermeneutic characteristic relating to one’s satisfaction with pornography.
- The only people who do seem to “dislike all porn” are, of course, absexuals—folks who find pornography abhorrent. These people are typically polemicistic anti-porn crusaders for whom any and all “porn” is ideologically incompatible with “erotica,” a category containing depictions many of them do claim to “like.” For the purposes of this discussion, I treat “porn” and “erotica” as synonymous since my intent is to explore any (sexualized) satisfaction acquired through any media, regardless of how the consumer categorizes said media or maintains any philosophical objections to it. [↩]
- Also, as I am most assuredly a foreigner in academic lands, I don’t have as much insight into formal research results as others might. I am, after all, a middle school drop-out, albeit one interested in reading academically rigorous studies on porn. Links in comments welcomed! [↩]
- Remittance girl elaborated in a follow-up post, which also has an interesting comment thread. [↩]
- These anecdotes seem further supported by numerous studies in which women view porn and are observed for physiological and psychological responses. See, for instance, Sexual arousal in women: A comparison of cognitive and physiological responses by continuous measurement and Sexual arousal in women: The development of a measurement device for vaginal blood volume. Unfortunately, it’s difficult to gauge these studies’ precise relevance to this discussion in part because the particular pornography used is not publicly available (and as a starving activist, I haven’t the resources to purchase the studies’ full text or other materials). What is notable, however, is the prevalent cognitive dissonance among women studied. [↩]
- I don’t have any numbers, but private correspondence with publishers of material explicitly designed around a “female gaze” informs me that there are literally near-zero female photographers who exclusively photograph male models. Don’t believe me? Read Where Are The Women Who Photograph Men? [↩]
- True to his reportedly narcissistic form, the Kinsey scale is named after Alfred Kinsey. [↩]
- I use “sociosexual” here and elsewhere in this post to refer to the sum of a person’s social and sexual constitution, not in the formal psychological sense as a behavioral orientation measuring a desire to engage in sexual acts independent from feelings of love. [↩]
- It is noteworthy that psychoanalytic discourses on gaze describe the concept as observing the observation of the self, as in by literally watching oneself in a mirror. Psychoanalytic theory formalizes notions of imagination by passage through a “mirror stage” of psychological development, that is, when a child is able to recognize that their own image in a mirror is their own image. Such an understanding of the self is necessary to form a distinction between “I” and “you” and is therefore a prerequisite for developing at least a homo-gazing orientation, as the viewer of a pornographic image actively seeks to empathize with or project their identity onto the (objectified) model. (A hetero-gazing orientation may not rely on a prior “mirror stage” since in this case the viewer conceptualizes the sexual image as a mere extension of their own eyesight.) This also means that a gaze orientation is not necessarily inborn, as other usages of the “orientation model” may imply. [↩]
- Since BDSM play explicitly references both relationships of asymmetric power and theatrical ritual, it is an outstandingly useful lens for this analysis. [↩]
- See Playing on the Edge, p. 114, paragraph 2. [↩]
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by Tweets that mention Breaking Pornography’s Fourth Wall: Erotic satisfaction as a function of gaze « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed -- Topsy.com
22 Feb 2011 at 23:26
[…] This post was mentioned on Twitter by maymaym, maymaym. maymaym said: New blog post: Breaking #Pornography’s Fourth Wall: Erotic satisfaction as a function of #gaze http://maybemaimed.com/?p=2716 #media #gender […]
by Nickm
23 Feb 2011 at 02:26
Apparently, it takes a mind like yours, unpolluted by academic “training”, to not only “tell it as it is” but primarily “see it as it is.” AS IT IS – being an honest SUBJECTIVE perception, and not necessarily scientifically OBJECTIVE. This, more, in my humble opinion, relevant to the entire SUBJECT of porn, than most other aspects.Â
My first gut reaction has to do primarily with what may be one of the more mundane, in comparison, aspects of this issue: the ECONOMY of porn. (the POLITICS, while being part of the previous, and the NATURE and  SOCIOLOGY – being maybe less mundane.)  Â
Shaping contemporary porn, “good” or “bad”, is a result of supply and demand. One can argue endlessly about additional influences, analyze those, criticize some and profess for others, some of which may be present and some only theorized, but at the end of the day, this somewhat “democratic” process of determination by majority is what gives rise to conventions. As it is with any other “product for consumption” (religion included) those who are posed to make the most profit – will succeed in providing the product which will be consumed by MORE consumers – and statistically those will fall into the category of the LCD (Lowest Common Denominator.) That is where you may want to be most influential, if promoting your agenda is important to you. Anyone who wishes to perfectly fulfill a dream should aspire to create this fulfillment in an individual fashion, custom made, one of a kind, probably way more expensive, probably unaffordable. Want YOUR perfect dress for the red carpet? You won’t find it in the Gap.Â
Obviously, a lot more can be said, but I just wanted to provide an initial response.
This was, amidst the uprising against dictatorships in the Mideast and the catastrophic earthquake in New Zealand, a flood of news of world shaking, literally, events, one of the most fascinating and thought provoking reads I encountered recently. It made me think (and even wish), for example, that in this era of such political unrest, when so much weighs on the ability to correctly analyze world events to shape political response that will yield positive results (and this is still far from identifying the particulars of “positive – for who?”) – Employing your way of observing, thinking, analyzing and reporting would be extremely beneficial, if not necessary. The striking resemblance of this writing to typical academic analysis/methodology is probably not incidental, yet, to me, there are more than just the obvious differences, all of which contribute to illuminate (point out and elaborate on) the subject in ways that would have not been possible otherwise.Â
by SnowdropExplodes
23 Feb 2011 at 09:51
It’s interesting, I was thinking about how to explain what I understood by the term “male gaze” and the thoughts I was having touched upon the theme you’ve developed here into a full structure. I think this concept of hetero/homo gaze is very useful indeed.
I did want to add to the idea somewhat, though, based at least in part on looking at how I personally view porn:
I think there’s another self/other gaze element that can be identified, although I’m not sure yet what difference it makes. I think there is a distinction between a gaze where the feeling is “I imagine what it feels like for what’s happening to that person to be happening to me” and “I imagine what it feels like to that person to be in that situation”. So there’s a scale also between “empathy” and “embodiment” to be considered. Thus, a distinction between male homo-empathic gaze and homo-embodiment gaze would be the difference between “I enjoy seeing that he is enjoying doing these sex acts” and “I would really enjoy being him doing these sex acts”. With the hetero-gaze, I suppose the scale would be between “object” and “empathy”: so you have the male hetero-objectifying being “I’d like to (be) do(ing) her!” versus the hetero-empathic gaze saying “I’d like to (be) making her feel like that!”
On this schema, I most often view porn with a “male hetero-empathic” gaze because I like to see the camera focussed on the “not-like” (female) body, and I like it specifically to focus on showing her reactions so that I can identify with her emotions. It’s no accident that when I write BDSM erotic fiction I tend to write from the female submissive’s point of view a lot!
by Quiet Riot Girl
23 Feb 2011 at 11:27
Hi Maymaym
I found this post very interesting and probably more helpful to me than the other stuff I read/saw around LadyPornday.
It’s not to say I agree with all or even much of it but I like your approach.
I think I will have to write a post in response and after reading Tony Comstock’s work on porn/film/gender.
The discussion I am having is getting very disparate around the blog-land so I will try and pull my thoughts together.
QRG
by Trusthynenemy
23 Feb 2011 at 12:02
The thing I miss about college: access to all of these articles and the like.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Your analysis of gaze might actually explain some of the phenomena that I recall learning about, some of which might have even come from those articles (I can’t remember). There were studies about what caused arousal in females compared to males, and I think the interpretation of the results might be different than what was given, if we look at the issue of gaze.
If you could have a subscription to an academic journal, do you know what journal you would want a subscription to?
by Lady Erisiana Cherie
23 Feb 2011 at 12:04
As I inadequately tried to express in less than 140 characters this morning, I think that while your analysis is BRILLIANT in describing/explaining some (most?) of the ways people’s gender and viewpoint affect their interactions with porn, I think something is still left out.
Your “gaze scale” goes from the object-identifying (I’d love to FUCK that person!) to the subject-identifying (I’d love to BE that person!). And this gaze scale does indeed allow for the existence and preferences of folks whose enjoyment of porn is essentially voyeuristic (I love to WATCH those people fuck!). But we are still talking about folks whose porn-preference is for watching things that are within the realm of physical/legal possibility, and whose enjoyment of the porn is related to their personal involvement in the scene. As you yourself said to me, voyeurism *is* participation.
And that’s not what I’m talking about at all.
I’m talking about folks whose enjoyment of porn DEPENDS on the UNREALITY of the scene. NOT the folks who are inhibited from exploring their desires (for whatever reason, I’m not casting judgment here) and find an outlet in watching porn. Not, for example, the person who says “oh, I love to watch hot threesome scenes with two chicks and a guy because I know my wife would never ever get into that.”
I mentioned hentai in my tweet because that’s one obvious place where fantastical porn exists, and it’s in viewing and discussing this style of porn that I’ve personally see this distinction most vivdly. I could not begin to count the number of times I’ve mentioned that I enjoy hentai and had the person(s) I’m talking with say “I never saw the point of that – how could you get turned on by ~cartoons~?” For me, that cartoon-ness, that quality that says “this is not reality and never could be” is a NECESSARY PART of the enjoyment. Other people, even if their pleasure is voyeuristic in nature, apparently still need for the sex portrayed to be within the realm of possibility.
As another example of (what I think is) the same phenomenon – I hate most “chick flicks”. When I choose a movie to watch, I want to ESCAPE from the problems and anxieties of real life. A movie where real-seeming people deal with the kinds of problems I might actually have to face? Not interested. But obviously loads of other people, and mainstream culture in general, eat that shit up.
Somebody who’s more immersed in academia might have better words for what I am trying to say. And of course I don’t think there’s a hard line between those who like fantastical porn and those who like more realistic fare. I think it’s more of a scale like the Kinsey scale or the one you posit for gaze. But I think that a lot of the legal & social issues about porn directly or indirectly relate to this. When e.g. a judge in an obscenity case is looking at a “cannibalism” pornsite featuring models trussed up and (apparently) about to be roasted, and s/he’s thinking that the viewers actually long to DO these things, how much more likely is it that s/he will feel such content needs to be regulated? If it were understood and accepted that some people make erotic fantasies out of things they’d never want to do – that, in fact, the allure of the fantasy lies in its very impossibility – how different might the reaction be?
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by March Events and a Segment on Sexploration with Monika « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
26 Feb 2011 at 20:06
[…] unexpectedly more busy than I know how to handle. Between the theory and excellent commentary my post last week is generating and all that I’m doing, I wake up each morning (or, afternoon as the case may be) and […]
by maymay
01 Mar 2011 at 20:47
Okay, finally I have a moment to get back into this discussion. Sorry for the delay, everyone. And thanks for your amazing commentary thus far.
First, SnowdropExplodes made a point I think is worth mentioning but also highlights either my own explanatory failure or a miscommunication:
So, I’d say no, that’s not quite right. What you seem (at least to me) to be saying is that there are multiple ways of looking at the same situation. This does not actually result in another element, merely a different perspective on the same dataset. When you say, for instance,
all you’re really identifying is that there are multiple angles of access from which you can relate to the gaze itself. In film theory, this is known as a “double gaze.” It comes up in discussions of nationalism, as well as in gendered media study. But again, I think it is a mistake to theorize that this is a new degree of granularity, rather than a different vantage point on the same “concrete” event.
In other words, it sounds to me like you’re using identification (“empathic”) descriptors which are complementary to my objectification (“doing”) descriptors. In both cases, however, empathy in the sense of emotive response is central to the porn consumption process, regardless of an “empathy/embodiment” scale.
by maymay
01 Mar 2011 at 20:50
I’m not used to being complimented so clearly from you, Quiet Riot Girl, so I appreciate the positive feedback. :)
Please let me know when you’ve got some thoughts on this matter put together. I would be interested to read them.
by maymay
01 Mar 2011 at 20:56
Exactly, Trusthynenemy. This is why I so often agree with others observations, and disagree with their conclusions.
I don’t even know the names of academic journals. I know this post sounded academic and all, but I am not only a middle school drop-out, I also am a horrifically slow reader. While it may sound like I’m quite learned in media studies and film theory and psychoanalytical stuff and whatnot, I picked up most of the intersectional knowledge in my post above while writing the post. ;)
This is the difference between information and knowledge. This is also yet more proof that schools can never teach you knowledge, they can only impart information.
by maymay
01 Mar 2011 at 21:19
Thanks, Lady Erisiana Cherie.
Possibly. I disagree that what might be left out is what you said is left out; it is not.
You got this backwards (unless you simply made a typo). Object-identifying gaze is more akin to “I’d love to be that person” while subject-identifying gaze is more akin to “I’d love to fuck that person.”
Right. This seems to be what SnowdropExlodes is trying to get at, but he explains it using a new scale, which is redundant if one approaches the issue with the framework I laid out.
I disagree.
First of all, all porn is by definition fantastical; consuming porn is itself fantasy-fulfillment.
Second, while I see what you’re trying to get at by citing “tentacle porn” and whatnot, that has no relevance with regard to deconstructing gaze precisely because tentacle porn can be consumed whether or not one can actually get fucked by tentacles. The actuality of the fantasy has no bearing on whether or not one can view imagery of it, nor on the ability or inability of a person to desire viewing it or experiencing it in the first place. When you talk about hating “chick flicks,” you’re not talking about gaze, you’re talking about desire, and that is similarly off-point.
So, while you may be on to something relative to pornographic style itself (“those who like fantastical porn and those who like more realistic fare”), the “legal and social issues about porn” you cite seem to have permeated your reading of my post to a degree that makes your comment apropos to discussions of sociopolitical rather than individualistic sociosexual matters. That’s certainly interesting stuff, but not what I’m talking about at all.
by SnowdropExplodes
01 Mar 2011 at 22:52
I don’t understand the distinction here between “angle of access” and “gaze”. Since you talk in the OP about subject or object identifying, is that not the same thing as “a different vantage point on the same ‘concrete’ event”? Is the “concrete event” in this discussion the media that is viewed (e.g. a photograph or video), or is it the event that the media recorded with a particular “gaze” (e.g. the performance that was photographed or videoed)?
I’m curious as to how you would relate this gaze theory to the different “Roles in Narrative” identified by this survey – it seems to me that the distinction between “Jumping the Frame”, “Simple/Basic Surrogacy” and “Meta-fantasy” touches at least partially on the idea I was trying to express.
Granted, but it seems to me that gaze orientation is also about what produces that emotive response for an individual, and in my conception (and experience) so is the embodiment/empathy. I don’t see why one could not equally state that “gaze is central to the porn consumption process, regardless of a “homo-gaze/hetero-gaze” scale. An example would be that (het) porn where I don’t get to see the woman’s face (or her attention is drawn towards the viewer rather than the sex she’s having!) doesn’t work for me nearly as much as when I see her reactions to what’s happening, because I am not able to make that emotive connection. But the amount of porn that focusses purely on the body, or else has the expression focussed on inviting the viewer into the frame, would seem to demonstrate that there are plenty of people who do like it and who do get that emotive response. How does that kind of distinction differ from the distinction of homo/hetero gaze?
by maymay
01 Mar 2011 at 23:47
So by “angle of access,” SnowdropExplodes, I meant the way in which one understands a topic (I took this verbage from Clarisse Thorn, but can’t find a reference on her blog right now), not literally the way in which one gets access to a particular thing. Perhaps that was a poor choice of words on my part.
Orlando’s work sounds interesting. Thanks for the pointer! I’ll check it out when I can.
No, it’s not. That’s my point: that gaze itself can be understood as a lens or filter through which a response to a particular artifact is experienced, rather than the cause of such a response. It thus has no shape or effect when divorced from either the viewer (gazer) or the viewed (gazed-upon artifact).
Gaze orientation is therefore, to use programming terminology (since it’s all I’ve got left), a polymorphic composited object; it only makes sense when conceived of as “belonging to” a gazer, and its shape or function changes depending on the character of the individual doing the gazing (thus, polymorphic, or “taking many shapes”).
I’m not certain, but from the examples you keep using it seems to me that you’re getting hung up on attaching gaze orientation to biological sex. When you say:
you seem to be saying that because you are male-bodied, the female-bodied model is the “not-like” (hetero-gazed) object, but that’s true if and only if biological sex is the most salient hermeneutic construct in your porn-consuming desires. In my words, you’re describing a homo-gazing/object-identifying orientation in emotive response and a hetero-gazing/subject-identifying orientation when the sociosexual facet being analyzed is biological sex (and possibly sexual orientation, if you’re straight).
So, to clarify, the “hetero” in hetero-gazing is not intrinsically associated with any specific sexual characteristic (such as biological sex)—this entire theory would be moot if it was—which is why your notion of empathic to embodying replicates my subject/object framing using different words. On that note, perhaps the “hetero/homo” prefixes, which I intended solely linguistically rather than sexologically, have become too strongly overloaded to convey this idea to sex geeks clearly. Your other example can be similarly described:
And here, again, you are expressing an object-identifying framing; when she looks at the camera she’s quite a bit more literally (in theatric terms, anyway) “breaking the fourth wall” of the porn she’s in and thus lessening (for you) the porn’s illusion precisely because you are exhibiting homo-gazing/object-identifying behavior (by saying it “doesn’t work for me nearly as much”). Again, that’s the exact same thing as what you’re saying is an “empathic” gaze. In fact, check out my 8th footnote, above, which explains this phenomenon using the context of Lacanian gaze theory.
Hence, “empathy/embodiment” seems a less precise formulation of my model, and since it adds nothing, is redundant. I hope this helps, for now.
For whatever it’s worth, there’s like four more 2,000 word posts I’d like to write and about a bazillion information visualizations I’d like to create to elaborate on this whole thing, but between last week and now I just haven’t had the time.
by SnowdropExplodes
02 Mar 2011 at 05:13
I think I’m getting closer to understanding this. You’re right, I was focussed too much on male/female, that was because I understood the OP to be proposing a second dimension to gaze, in addition to male gaze of female gaze, rather than (as now appears to be the case) a complete revision or replacement of that idea?
I am also now thinking that the word “gaze” confuses me (and the Lacan link in the 8th footnote made things seem less clear!) I had in mind (based on previous contexts in which I saw it used) a tentative understanding of the term as relating in some way to a physical presence – the way in which the camera places a viewer in relation to a scene. So a “gaze orientation” in my mind was accompanied by the physical orientation of the camera (or of the person’s eyes in the real world) and, in the classical feminist “male”/”female” gaze, working back from that to infer the existence and nature of the viewer and/or hir intention. Thus the point of my example was to show how the camera or director of a porn video responds differently based on whether the viewer is perceived as having a desire for the body or the emotion of the performer. But now I think that my understanding of the term must be mistaken?
If I’ve got this straight, it sounds like you are agreeing that there are at least two dimensions to “gaze” (an “emotive response gaze” and a “biological sex gaze”), that can operate independently, can both be measured as falling on the hetero-homo gaze scale, and are distinguished by which facet is under consideration? Could this be termed as a distinction between “identify-as” and “identify-with”? (i.e. I want to identify as the male in het porn, but want to identify with the female.) But when you talk about gaze being a lens I am not sure that this understanding works either. Is the processing more sequential? Like this:
EVENT -> viewed media -> gaze -> emotive identification -> RESPONSE (interpretation/understanding)
I may then have been looking at all three of the intervening steps as a single step called “gaze” (thus ending up talking about how emotive identification has an effect on the physical nature of the viewed media).
by maymay
02 Mar 2011 at 15:04
Yes, I think so, SnowdropExplodes; sounds like gaze itself is what’s tripping you up. It’s a concept I understand as having slightly different permutations depending on the field in which it’s used (hence film theory’s “gaze” is related but not identical to Lacan’s “Gaze” which, again, is related to but not identical to Foucault’s “medical gaze,” and so on). My use of it in all this is intentionally intersectional; I’m merging feminist film theory with sexology, and arguably with phenomenology (both psychological and philosophical), to arrive at another, more interdisciplinary, permutation of gaze.
I guess, ordinarily, someone would suggest to you that reading Lacan (so you can get up to speed on the psychoanalytic Gaze) and Foucault (the same but for medical gaze) and so on would help clarify things. However, since I have not read them either, suggesting you go do that in order to grok this seems pompous, albeit potentially helpful nonetheless. :)
I wouldn’t say I’m proposing a complete revision or replacement of the idea, although I suppose if that helps folks re-conceptualize things, then sure, I am. :) Rather, if the concept of gaze could be described as analogous to a physical object, I have turned that object around and am now looking at it from a different perspective. As a result, I have noticed that it doesn’t look, from this angle, as others have previously asserted.
This is much the same thing as, for example, charting the stars from Earth and saying, “There’s Orion.” However, if you traveled to, say, Rigel and did the same thing, charting the same stars, your chart would not include Orion because the shapes that the stars in the universe make are relative to your vantage point. That relativity, however, does not negate the fact that stars and their positions can be objectively measured.
Back to this context, it also does not mean there are “dimensions of gaze,” in the sense that gaze has multiple constituent parts that work independently from one another. Instead, it means that any sociosexual facet can be an input to one’s gaze “lens” or “filter” (as described above). In other words, when unpacking gaze, gaze itself is not the variable, everything else is.
Those terms (“as” vs. “with”) don’t make sense to me, but…maybe it could termed that way? (My gut tells me to say “almost but not quite,” but I don’t want to shoot you down.)
Taken as a whole, when you say “I want to identify as the male in het porn, but want to identify with the female,” this is what I term “bi-gazing,” because it is neither wholly subject- nor wholly object-identifying when the subject/object “gaze” is understood in its film theory context. However, when your sociosexual makeup is examined in terms of component parts (biological sex or emotive response, in our examples above) you’ve expressed more dichotomized reactions.
So, what you’re hitting on is actually the limitations of Kinsey’s scale. A number line is a useful teaching tool but is elementary. The reason phrases like “everyone is partly bisexual” were once radical, then chic, and are now becoming passé in some sex community circles is because sexual attraction is intuitively understood as incorporating much more sexual orientation, yet few people have anything other than the Kinsey scale with which to introspect. As a result, they have no way to conceptually reconcile the other facets of their sociosexuality with the mental model they possess; they know that in one facet they are not homosexual and yet in another they are not heterosexual, ergo, “everyone is bisexual.”
In exactly the same way, you seem to be hitting the limitations of the gaze scale. Ergo, “everyone is bi-gazing.” That, by the way, is precisely why I said I have “like four more 2,000 word posts I’d like to write and about a bazillion information visualizations I’d like to create to elaborate on this whole thing.” :)
In physical terms, yes, an event occurs (like a porn shoot, or someone draws a hentai cartoon, etc.), media is produced, and then someone views it (gaze+emotive identification+response). But gaze as we’re using it here has more to do with the study of a human experience, without considering the sequential (and empirical) reality you’ve described (i.e., phenomenology). This is also what I think Erisiana misunderstood, as she seems hung up on the realism of the pornographic artifact and its impact on experience, which is an “input,” not the (polymorphic) “lens” of gaze itself.
by SnowdropExplodes
02 Mar 2011 at 16:52
Heh. As it happens, I had just started reading a book called Feminist Media Studies (Liesbet van Zoonen, 1994) and I thought today that maybe there would be a chapter on gaze theory and I could skip ahead to that and maybe it would help. There was, but it hasn’t. From the explanation van Zoonen gives of Mulvey, all I get is “Freudian bullshit + weird gobbledegook, therefore male gaze”. The link to the Lacan website in your 8th footnote also just came across to me as “pretentious gobbledegook, therefore psychoanalytic gaze”. I can’t relate to these ideas at all and to be honest it all feels very hand-waving and airy-fairy while pretending to be clever and precise. (I’m also very strongly NOT a fan of Freud, and tend to have little time for things that lean heavily on his work.)
So I am completely lost now. I feel like I don’t even have the basis to figure out the right questions to ask to improve my understanding. So the rest of it – Orion, “with”/”as” and so on – I don’t have a frame of reference to make sense of it.
Since I thought there seemed to be something valuable coming out of the OP, I do have some questions, although I am not sure how much clearer it will make things (questions that seem to be obscured rather than clarified by all the other explanations of gaze I have found so far – unless they’re the same stuff that formed my original misconception of what gaze is):
But you also said that:
And you spoke about “concrete” events (but never defined that term).
So, the questions in order are:
What is a gazer (with examples)? What is a gazed-upon artifact (with examples)? What do you mean by “a human experience” in this context (for example, is it a discrete “this happened to me” or is it a continuous “this is the way I, a human, experience the world”)? When a gaze has a gazer and a gazed-upon, what gives it form, and on what does it have an effect? Is a gaze a concrete event, or is the concrete event the gazed-upon, or is it something else?
by maymay
02 Mar 2011 at 18:30
LOL! That’s fair, SnowdropExplodes. :) I feel the same way about most academics, too. I’m actually kind of surprised with myself how clear everything seems and I’m thus frustrated by my inability to show visually what I keep attempting (and possibly failing) to clarify literally (i.e., using literature).
For whatever it’s worth, if you’re feeling like you want to write this post off as “pretentious gobbledygook” for now, I won’t take it personally. That said, please understand that I’m stretched to the limit of both my explanatory and exploratory literal skill in this thread, which I hope you take as a compliment; it’s rare that people challenge me to explain something in new ways without putting me off or making me feel ineffectual.
Your questions, on the other hand, have been precisely the kind of feedback I was hoping for because answering them forces me to re-explain using new ways of approaching the ideas. This comment thread may even be the basis of future posts. So, thanks.
With that understood, let me try one more time:
A “gazer” is a viewer. A “viewer” is someone who interprets an experience. In my formulation, the gazer is the porn-consumer. In film theory, there are several gazers (and thus several gazes), including the actors/models in the frame as well as the cameraperson (the gaze of the film itself as seen through the director’s “vision” of it).
A gazed-upon artifact is a thing being viewed, such as a film, or Lady Porn Day’s banner; the artifact is an inanimate object, that is, the media itself. In the case of Lady Porn Day’s banner image used in this post, one gaze could be described as belonging to the photographer (i.e., traditional “male gaze”) while the other can be described as the porn-consumer (i.e., the notion of gaze I’m unpacked in this post).
I was trying to say “a subjective experience,” i.e., an experience that is interpreted by the same person doing the experiencing, but I wanted to avoid any potential confusion between “subjective” and “subject/object”. So, I meant “this is the way I, a human, experience the world.” Oh, English, how you fail me sometimes.
A gaze always has a gazer and gazed-upon, and what gives it form is the composite of both these elements (gazer and gazed-upon). Here, gaze is like gravity; it takes up no space but its effects can be observed and it affects the surrounding environment by some stable, measurable degree.
The concrete event is the gazed-upon (i.e., pornographic artifact) as well as the gazing (subjective experience of viewing said artifact), but not gaze itself. In much the same way that gravity takes up no space but affects particles in direct proportion to their mass, gaze is not concrete (it is “shapeless”; neither male nor female, etc.) yet affects the gazer (porn consumer) in direct relation to said gazer’s sociosexual makeup.
Hope this helps. If nothing else, I’m hopeful that the fact that I do actually have answers for you mitigates some of the feeling of “hand-waving” it may look like I’m doing here. :)
by SnowdropExplodes
02 Mar 2011 at 19:24
No, it’s not you doing the hand-waving – it’s Lacan, Mulvey and the rest. That’s what has had me frustrated thus far: I felt like there was something definite and non-hand-wavy in the OP but until I get to grips with what “gaze” is, I don’t know what it is! But the ways in which “gaze” has been conceived in the texts I found have been more obscuring than clarifying. I was feeling like “I just can’t get this term straight so I am frustrated in my desire to understand the post”.
I think I have you on “gazer”. It is not merely perceiving an event, but the act of interpreting it that makes someone a gazer? Incidentally, I found a film theory explanation of gaze and it was interesting how the different gazes there seemed to correspond quite closely with the “Narrative Roles” described in the Orlando C. study I linked before!
On “gazed-upon” – the context I have found elsewhere seems to state explicitly that people as well as inanimate objects can be the object of a gaze (one usage of the “double gaze” term was when a gazed-upon is also gazing back). But here you’re using it purely about the produced work, and not the performers in it?
On “human experience” – it sounds as though “gaze” operates between the blank perception – by which I mean the basic forms that are seen or heard or felt or whatever as sensory input (English is failing me too!) – and the final understanding of what that means?
Feeding this back into something that seemed to make sense in amongst the gobbledegook from Lacan – in fact, the underlying concept behind your 8th footnote again! It looks to me like you’re saying gaze is a part of how one forms a model of one’s relationship to the gazed-upon? The “observing the observation of the self”.
I have to admit, I am not sure how to interpret the analogy here. I don’t know if this is because I am overthinking it with respect to the physics equations or because I don’t see what thing about gravity is equivalent to which thing about gaze.
I think the follow-up questions here are: “what is the composite of gazer and gazed-upon?” (I will probably need an example or two to get this straight); “what is the surrounding environment of a gaze (or a gazer/gazed-upon that produce a gaze)?”; “what sorts of effects does a gaze have on this environment?”
So in a hand-waving analogy to gravity, then a concrete event would be an apple falling: it is the combination of the apple, and the act of falling – but the gravitational equation that governs how the apple falls is not?
I feel that I at least have the right jigsaw puzzle pieces now and can start to make a guess at the picture on the box. It seems to me that you are talking about gaze as being something to do with the way that a person on perceiving some artwork (or porn – not that I draw a distinction between art and porn) forms a model of hirself as standing in relationship to the depicted events or people? (Again, if that’s right then it seems to be very close to some of what Orlando was looking at with the “subjective experiences of porn” survey.)
Thank you for taking the time to sort through all this. This whole topic is fascinating to me and I don’t think I have been this mentally stretched in such a rewarding way since I left university!
by maymay
03 Mar 2011 at 05:15
Correct, SnowdropExplodes, on all counts. I’m being purposefully conservative in my reassessment of gaze and thus am not (yet) confident that applying my theory to experiences other than consuming pornography makes sense. Hence the very end of my post where I explicitly note that interactions between two people are exempt from this analysis. (I.e., “…notably not when it comes to patronizing and providing erotic labor (soliciting a prostitute, doing escort work, etc.)…”)
Now I have no idea what you are saying. :) And I read that, like, four times. Maybe I’m too sleepy right now; there’s a chance I should not be writing this comment at the moment.
I’m saying that my theory of gaze is a key component in understanding any given person’s phenomenological (and subjective) experience when they consume pornography. That makes the theory central to understanding someone’s relationship to pornography, but I expressly limit the scope of the theory such that I make no claims about how it influences interactions to “gazed-upon” things other than pornography. My footnote regarding “observing the observation of the self” was a footnote precisely because it’s tangential to the main point; useful for understanding what I’m saying if you’re already familiar with the Lacanian Gaze, and it provides a lot of supporting context with regard to what I mean when I talk about the narcissism of my Male Submission Art project, but I don’t think you need to worry about Lacan and his gobbledygook as much as you seem to be. :)
I think you’re over-thinking it. Nothing in this conversation has anything to do with physics, at least not yet. The analogy to gravity was purely a way to express a visual representation of the phenomenological data in writing (i.e., a poor replacement for what I recently learned graph theory people call a force-directed graph), not a way to discuss actually analogous forces.
I think the answer to what you’re trying to ask is: the experience (of consuming porn) itself. That is, when trying to determine someone’s “subjective experiences of porn,” we need to account for three things: the makeup of the person having the experience, the porn with which they are having the experience, and the force that governs the relationship between the previous two. It’s that last item I think is missing from so many other analyses of pornography, and it’s that last item I’ve termed “gaze.”
I chose “gaze” specifically because to arrive at such a clean theory, I needed to draw from every field of study where I knew “gaze” was already used. I don’t think, in your case, the term is useful. I wonder if replacing it with some other word and re-reading my post again using the different term in its place would be more explanatory. (I have no idea what that other term would be. Maybe “erotic satisfaction force”?)
So, the example here is literally my enjoyment of a picture like this one depicting a naked, bound boy. Another example is my lack of enjoyment of the Lady Porn Day banner image, above. Yet another example is Rabbit’s insistence that the same Lady Porn Day banner I don’t like is, for her, “hot.”
So, now we’re getting circular, but the surrounding environment would be the gazer and the gazed-upon. Or, to use less hand-wavy semantics, the surrounding environment would be the first two items I enumerated above: the makeup of the person having the experience, and the porn with which they are having the experience.
Using the above example of the naked tied up boy, when I look at the image I become the gazer, and the image is the gazed-upon. Similarly, I’m the gazer when I’m looking at the Lady Porn Day banner I don’t like, and Rabbit is the gazer when she’s looking at the banner, even though her subjective experience of looking at the banner is far more pleasant than mine. In both cases with the banner, the gazed-upon is the image (or, more cinematically speaking, the image of the model).
Well, this is where it gets tricky because the effect of gaze is nondeterministic until you give it the other two items (gazer and gazed-upon) as “inputs.” This is, I suppose, a sociosexual version of Schrödinger’s cat, as annoying as I imagine that must be for you to hear. :)
So I can answer your question for me (and I have, in my post, where I describe my likes and dislikes), and I can make guesses for others (and I have, in my post, where I make some assertions using hypothetical examples), but I can’t actually tell you “what sorts of effects” will occur until they, y’know, happen, because “a gaze” does not exist independently—it always “belongs to” someone; it is a composited object. And now, it seems, I’ve totally run out of alternative explanations. Sorry. :(
All I’m saying is that despite its nondeterministic quality, gaze can be measured. You can put a number to it; i.e., the gaze scale. Just because no one can see gravity does not mean it is not real, or can not be quantified. Just because gaze has no effects until they are determined by an actual experience does not mean it is not real, or not measurable, either.
by SnowdropExplodes
03 Mar 2011 at 08:03
Argh! I thought I had it for a moment, but it’s slipping away again.
If I’ve got this straight, what you’re saying is that you are talking about a specific special-case scenario (which is the situation where “gazed-upon” falls into the category “pornography”). I’m not sure I like this, because what is and what isn’t “pornography”, is a subjective experience or interpretation in itself, surely? I feel like I don’t quite know what the bounds and scope of the theory actually are, which makes it hard to tell when my hypothetical constructions of what you’re talking about are actually in the same realm or not!
Heh – fair comment! I was pretty tired when I wrote it.
The image I was trying to convey with my confusing words (and that now seems to be, again, not what you were trying to convey) was something like this:
{REAL WORLD [Porn] —}{—> [Sensory perception of porn] [Sense of self in relation to porn] MIND}
So that there’s the actual media (porn) in the real world, and then in the mind there’s the perception of that porn (and it’s this perception that is the “gazed-upon”), and there’s a “gazer” – the sense of oneself (and one’s relationship to the porn) and gaze is what happens in between the two bits that are in the mind. Thus, it can affect either or both of them.
In Orlando’s survey, he commented on one image that he describes as “a couple having a conversation” that several people (I was one of them!) interpreted (or chose to interpret in my case – I recognised that the image didn’t really support the fantasy) as depicting a woman using a strap-on to have anal sex with her male partner. He also noted that, “it appears that once people have resolved an image in a particular way, it is difficult for them to re-interpret the image, even if they change modes from fantasy to objective analysis.” Which again would be a function of “gaze” in the model I tried to depict/describe above, with gaze affecting both the gazed-upon mental representation, and the “gazer”.
But I find it hard to relate that formulation to the phrase “erotic satisfaction forceâ€! (and no, substituting a different term in the OP didn’t help – I tried that as soon as I realised I had no clue what “gaze” meant.)
Your answer on “environment” is actually what I thought it would be, and that is helpful.
That is a frustrating answer, because again, it feels like I don’t know (and you are here refusing to tell me!) what the scope and the bounds of the theory are. You seem to be conflating “effects” and “range of possible effects”, and it’s the latter that I want to grasp. For example, with gravity I know that the range of possible effects is limited to attraction, and that the properties of the two objects affected by it that define the effect are simply the masses of the two objects. With the electromagnetic force, I know that the range of possible effects includes attraction, repulsion or perpendicular motion (due to the generator/motor effects). The things that can determine what specific effect I see are the charges on the two objects, and the direction and magnitude of a magnetic field, and the direction and rate of a current. But I don’t know beforehand which effect I will see if I don’t know the details of the charges and magnetic field and so on. (This choice of analogies was influenced by describing it as “erotic satisfaction force” – again, probably over-thinking it!)
I guess what I’m after is along the lines of “what types of input are allowable?” and “what types of output are allowable?” where “input” means something like “qualities belonging to the gazer/gazed-at” and “allowable” means something like “relevant to the theory”. For example, in gravity, the allowable types of input are simply “mass” and “distance from each other”.
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by Gazing, voyeurism | Spanked, Not Silenced
29 Apr 2011 at 16:09
[…] found myself thinking back to this evening when I was reading MayMay’s excellent article, Breaking Pornography’s Fourth Wall: Erotic Satisfaction as a Function of Gaze. In it, he breaks down the concept of “gaze” not only into male vs female, but into […]