UPDATE: This post is getting a lot of comments, but in light of my followup post, many of them are redundant. Such comments are not going to get approved as they add nothing and I don’t have the time to keep repeating explanations of things like stop energy over and over again ad nauseum. See also my blog’s comment policy. Thanks for everyone’s feedback, though. I do (eventually) read it all.
UPDATE 2: As KinkForAll sessions are relatively short, I didn’t have a lot of time to dive into background material in this presentation. However, I did just that the following weekend at the “Anti-censorship best practices for sex-positive publishers” seminar I lead during Atlanta Poly Weekend, since I had way more time. If you’re finding yourself thinking about this post, you’ll probably find plenty of value out of following up with the longer presentation.
Yesterday was KinkForAll Providence 2 (“KFAPVD2”), the eighth of these (now national) free and open-to-the-public unconferences about the intersection of sexuality with the rest of life. This one was put on as a fitting climax to Brown University’s Sex Week 2011, “unorganized” largely by xMech and SHEEC chairperson Aida Manduley. There were talks, presentations, and discussions about a range of different things, many of which were recorded by the live video stream I put up in the main room. You’ll be able to follow up with most of them at the KinkForAll Providence 2 schedule archive page as participants flesh it out in the coming days.
In my usual style, I gave a prepared talk and presented an accompanying slideshow. My talk was called “FetLife Considered Harmful: The Risks of Sex Ghettoization,” and I discussed what I see as a deeply dangerous, insular, growing monoculture within sexuality communities, epitomized by FetLife.com. This monoculture whitewashes the effects of privilege hierarchies while simultaneously reifying them in a way so ignorant and so terrifyingly undiscussed as to cause a lot of harm to individuals and “the community” en masse.
This was a challenging talk to research, it was even more challenging to write, but it was most challenging to actually present. This is not a nice talk. I am, ultimately, not interested in making nice with the community, with its leaders, or with its sex-negative attackers. Instead, I am interested in making change.
In part, this is because I have lost any and all significant investment I once had in “the community” and this, in turn, is because the community—unknowingly obsessed as it is with its narrow-minded, exclusionary ideals—is a place that is currently incapable of offering sanctuary or refuge from the hateful mainstream overculture for me and for countless others. In other words, I’m not an ambassador, publicist, or other form of PR-minded spokesperson for sex communities, and I am tired of their frequent, yet understandable spin doctoring. However, rather than discuss any pain this “community” inflicts from a personal perspective, since this talk was ultimately directed at wide swaths of the community itself, I approach the issue from the intersection of sociological and (elementary) technological analysis.
Below is a video of my presentation. As usual, my presentation is “open source†and Creative Commons licensed. Feel free to download it, use it yourself (including, since I can only be at one place at one time, literally re-presenting it wherever you wish and are able), or share it with anyone you think might find it valuable. If you do any of these things, I would greatly appreciate a link back to this page.
“FetLife Considered Harmful: The Risks of Sex Ghettoization” by maymaym on Ustream
Download:
- FetLife Considered Harmful: The Risks of Sex Ghettoization keynote presentation as a ZIP archive.
- FetLife Considered Harmful: The Risks of Sex Ghettoization keynote presentation as a PDF document.
- FetLife Considered Harmful: The Risks of Sex Ghettoization keynote presentation as a text transcript.
I purposefully kept this presentation as short as I felt was possible because, due to the 20 minute time limit on sessions at KinkForAll, and due to the fact that I was convinced the material in this presentation would spur heated discussion, I wanted to leave some room for a short Q&A after the talk. This meant I had to leave out a lot of depth, as well as many additional examples I could have cited. I may, at some point, present follow ups to this material that includes those in-depth details but, for now, I’m hopeful that there is enough here to get this long-overdue conversation started.
As expected, after I gave my talk, there were numerous questions and points raised from the in-person audience that I addressed, and are audible on the video embedded above. They were as follows:
- One person asked if FetLife could serve as a place of congregation and coordination for sexual minorities because the mainstream offers no such space. This was a great question. My (short) answer was that it can—in fact, every ghetto is by definition a place of congregation, and can potentially be a site of coordination as well—but the question is not whether these things are happening at all (they are) but how effective the result is. Currently, for many reasons, including current technical limitations that were sometimes chosen deliberately, harmful social norms deeply rooted within FetLife’s written rules (its “policies”) as well as its unspoken rules (its “practices”), and the active resistance of the sexuality minorities community as a whole for improving their ability to cooperate with one another, FetLife serves neither as a place of safe congregation nor a site of effective coordination.
In fact, the greater problem is that in the current anti-sex climate at large any sexuality-specific website will become a ghetto and thus the solution is not to create sexuality-centric spaces as silos in the first place. Instead, we need to create decentralized networks that disperse our memberships and information into spaces that are (ostensibly) subject-matter agnostic. The Internet was designed for this, and sites like FetLife.com actively hinder attempts to safely diversify in this way.
- Several people asked whether or not I had spoken with John Baku before I presented my talk. The answer is “yes and no” because while I made John aware of my concerns, I did so over Twitter and thus did not go into much detail. On the one hand, I simply didn’t have the time to do so (and I doubt John did either, as we’re both pretty busy people). On the other, however, I preferred to get the attention of people at FetLife.com in this way because it is, frankly, more disruptive and I feel that the complacency with which the sexuality communities handle “internal” issues like this needs to be publicly disrupted. It should also be noted that while I think John Baku sometimes presents as a bumbling fool, I like him personally very much.
Also, we as a community need to recognize that FetLife is a business. That does not mean it is inherently bad, but many people have begun treating FetLife as though it is their closest of friends as opposed to simply one of their business partners or service providers. (See also this absolutely classic response to this whole issue from a “community leader” on FetLife.) As a business, FetLife’s agenda is different from mine, and likely different from yours. At a minimum, we should be aware of this difference in perspectives.
- Another person questioned whether FetLife was actually better than I presented and posited that the site is actually more like Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) than a ghetto. This question betrays a profound ignorance regarding the various structures coordination may actually take, not to mention the structures of both Alcoholics Anonymous and FetLife as organizations. My answer was that, no, FetLife is not like Alcoholics Anonymous because AA is a fundamentally decentralized organization while FetLife is a fundamentally centralized one. For more on why this questioner is simply flat-out wrong, I recommend reading The Starfish and the Spider by Ori Brafman and Rod A. Beckstrom. See especially their second principle of decentralization: “it’s easy to mistake starfish for spiders.” (And, while we’re making analogies, you’ll actually see that KinkForAll is far more akin to Alcoholics Anonymous than FetLife is and will likely ever be.)
- This questioner also objected to my “conflation” of the LGBT community with the kink community. It is no surprise that this person self-identifies as a (top/dominant, cisgendered man and) member of the BDSM community, specifically. The strong tendency that BDSM community members have for reinforcing us/them (binary) thinking is a long-standing frustration I have with many of them and one that I view as inherently counterproductive (not to mention blatantly hypocritical) to their own stated mission statements. It was a derailing question and one I almost answered except for the fact that we really, really ran out of time at that point.
Notably, there was also a participant in the audience who offered a brief version of their own life story as a “data point” to support pretty much every point I made in this talk. That was quite unexpected and something I found very heartening. Thanks to you; you know who you are. ;)
Finally, here is a transcript of my talk in hypertext form. I encourage you to make use of the links herein; follow them, for they offer additional context and depth to the point with which they are associated.
August, 1966. “Cross-dressing” is illegal in San Francisco.
In the sixties, Gene Compton’s Cafeteria in the Tenderloin neighborhood was one of the few places in San Francisco where trans people could gather safely. They were unwelcome almost everywhere else they went. They were even often kicked out of gay bars.
Stonewall won’t happen for another three years. The LGBT community is currently known as the “homophile” community. America is experiencing a wave of mass student and youth protests against the war in Vietnam.
Three years before the Stonewall riots on Christopher Street, New York City, police entered Compton’s Cafeteria on Turk and Taylor Street in San Francisco. Fed up with the constant persecution, the transgender woman the officers were harassing threw her coffee cup in their faces, instigating a full-fledged riot that marked “the first known instance of collective, militant, queer resistance to police harassment in United States history“.
Many of the rioters were trans and homosexual members of “Vanguard, Incorporated,” an LGBT youth organization sponsored and funded by the Glide Memorial Methodist Church in San Francisco. Vanguard’s goal was to bring together factions of the San Francisco Tenderloin neighborhood—gay, trans, straight, police, businesspeople, and any other neighbors—to air differences peacefully and end discrimination. Later that year, the Vangaurd youth group changed its name to The Gay and Lesbian Center, becoming the first gay community center in the nation.
In 2002, I joined public sexuality communities; I began talking to people about their stories and started learning about the history of marginalized sexuality cultures. In 2009, the Internet turned me into a sexual freedom activist; I co-founded KinkForAll and I began traveling across America spreading the idea from city to city, coast to coast. But despite talking to thousands upon thousands of people, despite reading hundreds upon hundreds of news reports and blog posts and so on, it was not until 9 years later (2011)—this year—that I learned about Compton’s Cafeteria, or the central role trans people and young people played in fighting for sexual freedom from even before the start of the gay liberation movement in this country.
When people think of San Francisco they often think of Harvey Milk, or the Castro Theatre. “San Francisco,” they say, “sanctuary for the sexually open. San Francisco,” they say, “home for wayward queers. San Francisco,” they say, “epicenter of the sexual revolution.”
Walk the streets of my (new) hometown of San Francisco in 2011 and, if you take the time to look around carefully, you may notice a peculiar thing. Go to the Castro and, yes, you’ll find it teeming with hyper-masculinized musclemen, visit the Haight and you’ll run into YUPpies and hipsters with their designer boutiques as plentiful as Starbuck’s are in New York. But go to the Tenderloin and you’ll find every disadvantaged group you can imagine: immigrants (especially from Vietnam), Blacks, and—of course—trans youth.
After the Compton’s Cafeteria riots, police essentially cordoned off the Tenderloin as an area where trans people, most of whom were sex workers, could go without getting bullied. The Vanguard youth had won territory—they were granted a ghetto—where they have largely stayed, largely invisible to the up-and-coming GLB(“T”) mainstream, to this very day. Not two blocks from where I live, on the corner of Sutter and Larkin Street, is where many of the city’s trans street walkers call their office.
In contrast to the Tenderloin’s intersectionally underprivileged populace, the monoculture of other neighborhoods is stunning—the ghetto of San Francisco’s Tenderloin is and has long been segregation, not sanctuary. Monoculture is, by definition, the creation of a privileged class; it rejects the value inherent in diversity in order to favor a particular set of traits. Like all other institutions, monocultures are inherently exclusionary.
And as our generation’s organizing is moving away from physical city streets and into what Steven Johnson calls the cyber-cities that are websites on the Internet, I fear some of them, and one website in particular, is unwisely recreating sexuality monoculture online.
We live in an amazing moment in history. As I bet any sexually vocal person will tell you (if you don’t already know), the Internet has fundamentally transformed our ability to communicate with one another. For example, before the Internet, if you were a gay teenager in bum-fuck nowhere, you were the only gay person in the world. Now, though, after the Internet, if you’re a gay teenager in bum-fuck nowhere, you’re one of millions of gay teenagers communicating online.
This is big. This is not merely the evolution of telecommunication technologies. This is a revolution.
But for a while now, I’ve been growing increasingly concerned about the monopolizing—and whitewashing—effects FetLife is having over sexuality community discourse. Like a fetish all its own, sex community inhabitants are turning to FetLife instead of their own blogs or local mailing lists to write, debate, and promote their art and events. FetLife is sucking us up like a big black hole, and we risk getting crushed by its gravitational force.
On its homepage, FetLife says it’s “similar to Facebook and MySpace.” On his Twitter profile, FetLife’s creator, John Baku, describes himself as “David” to other social networks’ “Goliath”. No matter how noble his goal, however, in an ironic twist of fate John may have inadvertently created the greatest threat to online sex community and cyber-sex culture that has ever existed.
For those who don’t know, FetLife.com purports to be a safe space made “by kinksters, for kinksters.” Once inside, you’re ostensibly within the “community’s” walls. Here, limited individual privacy controls means that almost anything you post to FetLife is potentially visible to any other FetLife user. At the same time, anything you post to FetLife is restrained within FetLife’s walled garden; no entity, whether human or machine, peering at FetLife from its outside can see inside.
This is the primary dialectic claiming FetLife is “private” and thus “safe,” but it is deeply and dangerously flawed. It is flawed first and most simply from an individualistic perspective. Secondly, it is flawed from a group coordination (i.e., single community) perspective—and even more so from a global interactionist perspective.
For an individual, FetLife’s primary “privacy” offering is simply that nothing you post will be indexed by search engines like Google. Since there is no way to access FetLife from outside FetLife, it’s like Vegas: what you say on FetLife stays on FetLife. The implicit claim, then, is that the entire container is safe.
However, since all that is required to gain access to FetLife membership is a (free) email address, the claim is farcical on its face. Claiming FetLife is either private or safe for any given individual is like breaking open someone’s back door and then selling them a stronger lock for their front door.
I’m astounded by how many people fail to realize how exposed they are within FetLife. In a recent article published in The Eye about Columbia University’s BDSM education group, Conversio Virium (CV), this was highlighted quite clearly:
For Devon, the nature of his career forces him to keep his scene self under wraps, and though he’s a CV regular, few people know his real name. He describes one particular night he was going out with a bunch of his job friends at T.G.I. Friday’s when a co-worker whispered “Devon†under her breath. “I have a secret—I know you’re on FetLife,†she said.
Frankly, I’m shocked that some malicious idiot with a blog hasn’t logged onto FetLife and mined it for LULZ yet—but I assure you, it’s only a matter of time. When that happens, it’s not going to be FetLife’s fault per sé, but it is their responsibility as a social networking company to portray both the technical and social aspects of their service in an accurate way. In this sense, Facebook is actually a far, far safer place for a savvy kinky individual than FetLife is right now.
FetLife should either prioritize and implement granular privacy controls post-haste (instead of what they seem to be focusing on, which is creating a mobile version, chat rooms, and a spam filter) or change its public line to reflect that it has no meaningful ones. Since having a false sense of security is more dangerous than having an awareness of one’s very real vulnerabilities, prioritizing anything other than privacy at this stage in the game is irresponsible.
But FetLife is also hurting sexuality communities globally by encouraging people to join what amounts to a voluntary ghetto, and doing that is as stupid as it sounds.
When The Eye posted its article about Conversio Virium, I noticed within minutes of its publication and I spread the word to members of the group via the discussion list they (sort of) maintain. But ever since FetLife hit this subculture’s mainstream (yes, subcultures have a mainstream), I knew that to get any notice at all, I had to cross-post it to CV’s FetLife group. As you can see in the two threads here, the public Google group has no responses, while the FetLife group has quite a number.
This is not merely annoying on a personal level, it is problematic for the entire community in at least two ways. First, when someone in the FetLife thread offered valuable additional information about the article, that information was not visible to anyone outside of FetLife. (It was up to me to cross-post the followup.) Second, since the FetLife login screen effectively repels Google, everyone from archivists to casual observers are guaranteed not to stumble upon the additional information.
This isolationism is dangerous; like an anti-Vanguard, it discourages the peaceful airing of differences, separates factions of the community from one another, and nurtures an in-group/out-group mentality void of leadership. Where is our generation’s Vanguard? Sexuality on the Internet is a terribly persecuted topic. Why are we, as a community, making it easier for our words—our voice—to be muffled? Don’t get me wrong. Some private spaces are necessary and helpful. But when so much community evolution takes place within a single, closed environment, we are voluntarily ghettoizing our most important cultural valuables.
Take, as an example, Asher Bauer’s excellent essay, Field Guide to Creepy Dom. At the top of his post, Asher says, “This is something I wrote about two years ago which has been reposted every which way all over the internet. I don’t even know where it is at this point, I just know that I still get repost requests for it all the time.” I did some digging and found that it was originally posted (where else?) inside FetLife.
Again, two things are worthy of note about this:
- Despite being “reposted every which way all over the Internet,” Asher still received “repost requests for it all the time.” What this seems to suggest is that people were hearing about the article, but unable to find it on their own. Hence, the repost requests. Indeed, (at the time of this writing) Google’s cache only shows 6 hits on 3 different domains for a unique phrase within the essay. Of these, only one (1!) is a personal blog unaffiliated with one of John Baku’s “Goliaths.”
- Despite the obvious importance of this essay to the BDSM community, only the people who had heard about it already were able to extract value from it, because only they even knew to go looking for it. And despite getting posted to the Internet by others, it took nearly 2 years for the essay to even make it outside the FetLife wall and onto the public ‘net in the first place.
The Internet gave the sexual revolution—gave us—warp speed. I fear the growing FetLife monoculture is pulling us back to impulse.
In contrast to Asher’s essay, Patti’s equally thoughtful essay, Safewords are Dangerous, was first published at Alt.com. For all the problems of Alt.com (and they, themselves, could fill a whole talk, much less a short KinkForAll one) Patti’s essay was then, and is now, public for any newbie who’s googling for “safewords” to find. Even Patti, however, has now cross-posted the essay to her FetLife journal, perhaps a tribute to the all-mighty social network effect gods.
This should not be surprising. FetLife has become a cultural institution, and it carries with it all the side effects of such an organization. As Clay Shirky says, “an institution is inherently exclusionary.”1
The Internet has changed sexual culture. Is FetLife a peek into our future, or is it a reflection of our past? I fear it is the worst of both. Using FetLife, we’re unable to interact with the outside world while simultaneously being unable to interact to our full potential within its walls; promoting a “101” class or doing outreach using FetLife is a waste of energy because those things should be geared for people who probably don’t spend time there.
In the words of Dar Williams:
And what's the future, who will choose it Politics of love and music Underdogs who turn the tables Indie versus major labels There's so much to see through Like our parents do more drugs than we do […] I am calling, can you hear this? I was out here listening all the time….Do you hear them calling? The masses of people, young and old, who don’t yet know where to look?
If you’re spending most of your time in FetLife’s walled garden, you’re not listening. But it’s worse than that, because as far as they know, you don’t exist. And that means they think they’re the only gay teenager in the world.
- Quote is 4 minutes and 10 seconds into his speech. [↩]
by Molly Ren
20 Mar 2011 at 17:30
“n fact, the greater problem is that in the current anti-sex climate at large any sexuality-specific website will become a ghetto and thus the solution is not to create sexuality-centric spaces as silos in the first place. Instead, we need to create decentralized networks that disperse our memberships and information into spaces that are (ostensibly) subject-matter agnostic.”
What would this decentralized network look like? What kind of skills do you need to create one?
I remember way back when, after allowing almost any kind of content, Flickr and YouTube changed their content policies and got rid of all the porn. Livejournal, Blogger, and Facebook have been equally frustrating. The tradoff almost always seems to be that after a service gets to be a certain size they need to become “porn free”, but many people use these sites because they do not have the skills to create their own. Is it enough, as Eros Blog once said, that “Anything worth doing on the internet is worth doing at your own domain that you control”, or do we need something else?
What do you think of the practice of having a main blog with a domain you control, and using Fetlife as a signal booster?
by maymay
20 Mar 2011 at 17:39
That’s a great question, Molly, and exactly the question I’m going to address in more detail during my session at Atlanta Poly Weekend. As you might expect, my answer is not simple—nor do I think I am the only one who can offer an “answer.”
So, I’ll suggest that you stay tuned for that. :)
Well, that is exactly what I do for now. :)
by Lisa Williams
20 Mar 2011 at 18:19
I regret that I missed you while you were in Providence, MayMay. My life has been so busy recently that it’s hard for me to stay abreast of community events. Nice to see this recap of your session — thank you for posting it.
by Miko-
20 Mar 2011 at 19:18
Definitely an interesting article to read– enlightening.
“..promoting a “101″ class or doing outreach using FetLife is a waste of energy because those things should be geared for people who probably don’t spend time there.”
I know that it would be unfair to use one example as a way to, in a way, combat a well-thought out conclusion, but I was introduced to FetLife from one of my friends and it was through there that I learned a new side of myself that I wouldn’t have known hadn’t been for this website. In fact, I believe that I’m overall more content as an individual than previously being exposed to the FetLife. Moreover, as far as organization is concerned, being able to go to a particular website and explore your interest as well as meeting new people in the process should be what the internet is about. And yes, while this does create a sort of close-off from the rest of the internet, niche sites exists for a reason because in the internet, people have the ability to be what they portray themselves as they see fit.
And while I do agree with decentralization, that tends to come after a point to where the website expands outside of its limits.
A good example of this is the notorious 4Chan. Now, I wouldn’t consider myself an avid goer or supporter for 4Chan, but without a doubt it is a niche site. Despite having crippling amounts of traffic going to that website, it is hard to argue that 4Chan does not conform to the ‘norms of the internet.’ And while this does create for a volatile environment that spews a sort of chaos, this site has a particular niche of being able to free oneself from reality and sparks exploration and interest — sometimes where it breaks the wall of segregation and into the mainstream whether it be protests or a change in thought.
What I’m saying is that though FetLife does effectively block off the rest of the internet and is contained in its own niche, by allowing the community to grow within and allow people to safely separate themselves from the real world versus the internet (given they want to do so) so that they may explore the areas themselves, given enough people and interests and the potential for further growth within the community, perhaps that this Niche website may grow beyond the borders created by Fetlife.
But with all that aside, this is all speculation and I really did enjoy the video presentation you did.
-Miko
by maymay
20 Mar 2011 at 20:42
Miko, your comment seems to be suffering from either/or thinking.
I never suggested that FetLife should not exist, nor did I treat “the Internet” as a monolithic not-FetLife. You, on the other hand, have done the reciprocal of both of these—that “FetLife” is a not-(real world)-Internet and that the usefulness for niche sites to exist needs defending:
I’d urge you to question this (flawed) approach in your analysis. I’d guess you’ve approached it this way because you have some personal anecdotes supporting it but, as I’m sure you know, the plural of anecdote is not data.
I also disagree with your understanding of decentralization. You posit it as a function of prevalence; that “niche” things are by nature centralized and that the more mainstream they become, the more capacity they gain for centralization:
Bluntly, that’s plain silly. In fact, it’s the reverse; the more “niche” a topic is, the more decentralized it is precisely because there is no institutional imperative to service extremely niche topics (see also the early Internet days before search engines existed where most Internet-wide navigation was accomplished thanks to individuals putting up “links” pages on their personal sites), whereas the more mainstream something is, the more rigid a structure (i.e., centralization) it has historically tended to adopt.
So, in other words, you’re just incorrect.
That said, I’m glad you have friends that introduced you to good experiences through FetLife. My goal is to make it more possible, systemically, for more people to have good experiences, like yours.
Currently, most people seem content letting such good experiences be a function of luck. I find that this tendency in these people exposes laziness and stupidity, not the compassion and strong work ethics they like to claim for themselves.
by Miko-
20 Mar 2011 at 22:02
Yeah, I see what you mean now. Thanks for the correction, no sarcasm
by OnyxCoquelicot
20 Mar 2011 at 23:37
As a site, it seems to be geared towards the ‘finding people’ part of the cycle of community building and it was very easy to simply slip out of the entire local scene as soon as I stopped logging into fetlife.
To tortuously extend a metaphor, it’s almost as if the existence of the site has allowed people to lazily discard all the tools in their toolbox until they’re left with a only big rubber mallet. A mallet isn’t going to cut it for everything, and while useful in some situations it can be actively detrimental in others.
Since I’m not one of those looking for sexual play on fet, being in an established relationship, the mallet doesn’t really work for me. Once I got past the ‘finding people’ stage, I was a lot less enamored with the site and the community as a whole. I’ve found more people on fet to join my local nerdy pursuits than I have any sort of kink community that I’d wish to participate in.
There’s only so long I can chat about sex, kink, and fetishes with people I have nothing else in common with (and most of my kinks don’t even count as something ‘in common’ with anyone) before I drift off to other communities. If there are others like me, those who consider fetishes a single aspect or facet of a broader life, then fetlife’s tight focus and vortex-like suction of all things kinky on the internet makes it far less likely for me to find awesome people who will understand me when I speak about kink who I actually share interests with.
I think I agree with you that fetlife is a problem. It has become so prominent that it overshadows and consumes all of the little, important groups into a big monolithic ‘community’. When people like me aren’t well served by that single huge community, then where do I go? I have yet to find a smaller community or forum that has anything to do with any of my kinky interests. At every turn I’m directed back at fet, which makes me think that it ate them all, grinding and processing them straight into the problematic and extremely frustrating Greater Community of Fetlife.
by Wilhelmina
21 Mar 2011 at 05:55
Another data point: I just moved back to Hong Kong where there is a kink community, but it’s tiny. Also it’s not the sort of place where you could publicly and safely hold an event about kink and/or BDSM practices without it being all over the tabloids the next day. Anyway, my point is that I met a guy my age on Fetlife who was curious about BDSM. We eventually met up for lunch and had a long conversation, where he told me how he found out about Fetlife. First, he found a blog post/article where one of the “big names” of Hong Kong’s kink scene was interviewed (“big name” as in she used to own a dungeon and she organized various private play parties and such). Her contact info (pen name & email) was on the post, and so he messaged her. And THEN he found out about Fetlife because she told him about it. But yeah, he found the blog post before he found Fetlife. And after I experimentally Googled around using BDSM search topics, Fetlife wasn’t the top result for any of them, except when I specifically added “social network” into my search terms. So this leads me to conclude that Fetlife, as you said, is not an easy place to find. Once my friend found Fetlife, he was pretty happy, but it took a long time for him to find it. I think there was a time gap of little under a year between his becoming interested in BDSM and his actually finding a way to connect with other people.
Re: Fetlife’s privacy settings, I never understood why Fetlife makes people sign up before they view anything. I don’t see any point in doing it except to protect people’s privacy, and it doesn’t even do that effectively. I don’t know anyone on Fetlife who discloses much of their personal information anyway, e.g. real name, so why would it matter if Google indexed the posts or not? Just a note, Fetlife *did* recently give people the option to make their photos and videos “friends only”, but nothing else.
I use Fetlife primarily to look up events and message people privately. When it comes to writing, and wanting other people to read that writing, the obvious choice of medium, for me, would be the medium that reaches more people. Journally entries or private correspondence that you only want friends to see don’t count, of course, but I’m bemused by how many people use Fetlife’s “notes” as platforms for long and informative essays that would do better posted on the big wide internet instead.
This post calls to mind some thoughts I’ve had about other forms of “ghettoization”, like an LGBT books section in a bookstore or an African-American Studies department in a university. Ideally, they wouldn’t need to exist because those issues would already be represented in mainstream culture. I think the same of Fetlife: it’s good that it exists, but it’s just a step to something even better.
Finally, (gah what a long comment) I think Fetlife *and* the sort of decentralized community that you’re talking about can coexist. As an earlier commenter said, I think people have just gotten lazy and have to realize that Fetlife isn’t a useful or appropriate communication tool for *everything.*
by delilahsscissors
21 Mar 2011 at 05:57
So at least I’m not the only one who thinks the emperor is naked.
My problems with fetlife have to do with the uncritical reinforcement of privilege. One of my favourite moments was a thread in the theory group, wondering why there were fewer Black kinksters. The insightful consensus was that Black people are just not into bdsm. That was pretty much when I knew I was done. Despite being “the community,” fetlife is absolutely not safe space.
I had never thought about the structural issues; thanks for the heads up. Do you think a restructuring of the community to be more decentralized would help the content problem? Or is the content problem an expression of other issues that restructuring cannot solve?
by Wilhelmina
21 Mar 2011 at 06:03
Also! – last thing, really – another thing to think about is Fetlife potentially being censored in certain places. I spent a few months in the Caribbean as an exchange student and I’m quite sure the university censored Fetlife due to “adult content”, but some blogs were able to sneak past the filters. I was also able to use Google reader to read censored blogs – something I wouldn’t have been able to do with Fetlife.
by S
22 Mar 2011 at 03:56
While the organizational structure of KinkForAll is inherently like AA and other 12-step programs, KFA *is* fundamentally different from AA at a fundamental level.
See Traditions 11 and 12:
Eleven—Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.
Twelve—Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.
I will personally never attend a Kink For All event because it is taped and shown on the internet, with my face and my voice available for all. In the same way that I prefer to only come out to people as being involved in Al-anon on a one-on-one basis, I prefer to be out about my sexuality on an individual basis. The idea of a 12-step meeting is that what one sees and hears at a meeting stays in the meeting; I prefer going to other kink unconference events over KFA because there is no filming.
I also think that KFA is far more personality-driven than 12-step programs. See: the fact that there has been no KFA in over a year and a half. Ultimately KFA’s are spectacles, one-off events like Al-anon group anniversaries, events that ultimately take a lot of organizational muscle. Either a pre-existing group has to take on the burden of organizing a KFA, or some person has to spearhead it as their event. And given that NYC has had no KFA, obviously no sustainable community was created and all of the people involved in putting on the event in the past have moved on.
Sure, the arms and legs may look the same with KFA and 12-step programs, but the heart is very different. I think ultimately you, Maymay, fail to truly grasp what AA and 12-step programs are really about. Because it’s obvious that you only have a surface understanding rather than a lived experience. You’ve just read the rules, but you don’t get the underlying structure.
The person doing service by running a big event gets emotional support from their home group and because service is built into the fabric of the Program; when I got busy, I got better. An Al-anon member embarks on doing service for selfish reasons: it helps them get better. Ultimately I see the model you’re advocating leading to personal burnout, where one does service because it is great and noble and is necessary to change the world. I am ultimately one person of many, important but not essential to the running of Al-anon. Because it’s not about me. Because anonymity also means checking your ego at the door. It means having some humility that there’s a reason why the Program has existed for 70 years, that maybe that system is ultimately a more sustainable solution than the one you’re proposing. Because when you start recording things and posting them, making them available to the outside world, then you do have members treated as spokespeople, members privileged with more of a voice because they have less to lose through a loss of anonymity.
Yeah, you can rant about how horrible fetlife is, but the proof is in the pudding: fetlife has aided in building and sustaining the NYC fetish scene, especially for those under 35, in a way that your KFAs have not. It has freed us from having to rely on organizations like TES to help us do publicity or host events, with their endless layers of bureaucratic nonsense. It’s allowed for a whole lot of us to connect outside of fetlife. It allowed me to form a regularly-meeting group of an obscure interest and do outreach in a way that is absolutely unthinkable using traditional blogs or websites.
Ultimately, in the same way that Al-anon has helped empowered me, Fetlife has helped empower me.
by OrderlyChaos
22 Mar 2011 at 07:33
I think the whole premise of Fetlife being “harmful” is absurd. Just because it’s not indexed doesn’t mean that it’s causing HARM. How can something that’s obscure and admittedly hard to find be causing some sort of harmful effect?
What DOES bother me is the fact that, because some unoriginal asshole reads your article, he (or she) goes all renegade martyr and pollutes the internet with personal and privatized “expert” opinion and authority regarding bdsm. He’s now indexed on Google, promotes himself as an educator and doesn’t even reference the fact that he heard about your aggrandised article ON Fetlife. It seems hypocritical of you to utilize that which you passionately (but annoyingly) bash.
See? Any idiot can play “expert”. You’ll be proud to know that your articulately asinine blatherings are really reciprocally inspiring. This makes Fetlife the big, bad coming-together of like-minded people bad….how? You forget they can be fucktards all by themselves, too?
by maymay
22 Mar 2011 at 09:13
Why, yes, S, of course. KinkForAll is not AA. Did you think I thought it was? If so, that’s kind of, well, crazy, actually.
And that’s your prerogative. This whole issue of filming is a tired, old debate about KinkForAll. One that has been hashed out many times before, and one that is not appropriate for this thread because it is off topic.
You also seem to think I’m “proposing” KinkForAll as a “solution” to the issues I have with FetLife:
I’m having a hard time reading that as anything but extremely presumptive. It’s also wrong. KinkForAll is not FetLife, and FetLife is not KinkForAll. In case it’s (still) not obvious to you by now, I think they should both exist.
I am unsurprised and depressed by the incessant zero-sum thinking going on in this supposedly open-minded community; if your group gets more members it means mine is suffering. That entire approach to community is an utter tragedy, yet it seems to me to be the single most prevalent characteristic among most sex-positive organizations—notably including many if not all of the highly emotionally-driven critics of my “FetLife Considered Harmful” essay.
And, since it seems it’s helpful if I say this over, and over, and over again, when you say…
…all I think is, “that’s wonderful! I am so glad FetLife has empowered you.” My challenge to you, empowered person, is how can you make FetLife more likely to empower more people such that more people are more likely to end up with the positive experiences you have had as a function of the way the system itself works? In other words, like I said in a previous comment here:
Finally, and the fact that you got this wrong shows me just how little you’re actually keeping up with KinkForAll-related goings-on, you’re incorrect about this:
In fact, there have been 8 KinkForAll unconferences in the span of 2 years. The first one occurred on March 8, 2009. The eighth one was this past Saturday, where I presented my “FetLife Considered Harmful” presentation, on March 19, 2011, as mentioned in this post.
The other events are (currently) listed, along with their dates, on the KinkForAll wiki frontpage. As you can see, the previous one was KinkForAll Washington DC 2, which occurred on June 12, 2010. That’s less than a year ago, far less “a year and a half,” as you seem to be chomping at the bit to wish was true.
If what you mean is there has been no KinkForAll in New York City since the last one (which is my guess because you mentioned an NYC-based group by name), then I have a couple theories as to why that is but that’s not really relevant for this thread, either. Regardless of my theories, though, the simple fact of the matter is that another will happen when and if someone in New York City makes it happen, and it won’t if someone doesn’t. (And, gee, that’s kind of like AA’s structure, too.)
If anyone in NYC is interested in putting together another KinkForAll unconference there (or anywhere, really), I’d encourage them to speak up and say so on the KinkForAll mailing list so others can join and help you out.
by maymay
22 Mar 2011 at 09:32
So, I’m not entirely sure how you missed this point, OrderlyChaos, but has it ever occurred to you that the obscurity itself is causing harm? See also The Closet.
Two questions. First, has this happened? If so, can you show me where? That is an interesting and important data point.
Second, if it hasn’t yet, then I’m amused you think my article is going to give someone the idea. You’ve essentially just said, “Don’t give them ideas!” as if not talking about the potential danger is some kind of protection. See also everything to do with youth sexuality.
by OrderlyChaos
22 Mar 2011 at 10:08
Well, it’s not like you’re the first person to bash a sexually-based website, forum, periodical, etc. “Giving people ideas” isn’t new and I assure you that people are getting their own ideas and regurgitating established ones all by themselves all the time. But what I’ve witnessed so far is that people being enlightened by the fact that they’re not reaching a big enough audience is that they go to where their audience (small as it may be) can reach them. Honestly, they probably had a much larger and more easily identifiable following on Fetlife, but feel that they can do the kinky world (and world, at large) some sort of public service if they put their junk in more places. Meanwhile…I’ll message you privately re: other references.
Fetlife is where those who would be most “harmed” can do the least amount of “harm”. Are you saying that kink and/or sex must be more or less mainstream and easier or more difficult to access and monitor? The whole “Darkness begetting dishonesty” thing just doesn’t seem to strike me as pertinent when it comes to Fetlife.
Trust me, I’ve been happily and thoroughly entertaining my interests in BDSM and “kink” with countless others since way before Fetlife was created. Fetlife didn’t, can’t, and won’t invent or destroy the world of bdsm, sex, procreation, institutionalized matrimony, parenting and child-rearing, social networking, etc.
by HisIrateness
22 Mar 2011 at 10:12
Something to consider, I think, is that the internet and real world have somewhat different functionality.
In the real world a ghetto is somewhere physical. Somewhere you get into and then find it hard to get out of.
The digital world isn’t nearly so compartmentalized as it seems, seeing as I can check up on computer games, have Fetlife open and have a half-dozen art sites up at the same time. Content and comments can be duplicated and migrated between sites with ease and, weirdly, visibility is much harder to achieve.
The alternative sexualities are, well, just that for the most part. We have to accept that on some level we are minorities and that our interests will not being reflected well in mainstream sites. As such I find that discovery for me takes through two avenues; either through a mass aggregator (FetLife) or through word of mouth.
In a sea of information individual blogs and small sites get lost without some kind of directory and a directory hosted and maintained by a single person is very difficult to keep up to date.
Now, plenty of your criticisms are very appropriate; such as the granular privacy filters, but part of my experience with the site has been the ability to to tripping through comments and links and degrees of separation and finding myself where I never expected to be before; something that the large blogs tend to be very poor for since most of them will link in a great big insular circle; you’re often hopping from circle to circle because that’s who the people know.
Their current privacy model is to keep casual snoopers out. Concerted snoopers will find what they want to on any site, all it takes is a little social engineering, so the sensible thing to do is to not put personally identifying information up with their kinky information in the first place.
I don’t begrudge FetLife its current place, nor do I think it’s precisely a good thing, but calls of ghettoization are rather interesting considering most people have been willfully pidgeonholeing themselves for years; myself included, and seeking privacy from a world that’s obsessed with violence but is terrified of sexuality.
Yes, having a “walled garden” can be bad for people trying to find their own way, but considering the mainstream search resources are under tremendous pressure to hide sexuality blaming a convenient network seems rather silly to me.
P.S. Another reason you might have issues finding alternate sexuality resources may be the almost professional class of jargon that’s come into use in the community. When I was seventeen tops and bottoms were parts of physical objects and a whip was something I frowned on using on horses.
by maymay
22 Mar 2011 at 10:43
Thanks for your comment, HisIrateness, because you’ve highlighted something I think a lot of people get wrong when thinking about information systems. Specifically, you’re confusing your human experience using the Internet with the way the Internet functions:
This is a common error. In fact, the Internet is in some ways more compartmentalized than the physical world and, in other ways, less. Your example is moot because you’re not discussing the functioning of the system, you’re discussing the aggregate experience of using the system through an analog interface known as a monitor.
Next, you’re contradicting yourself and you don’t seem to realize it:
Here’s the thing: content can be duplicated with ease, so long as there are tools to do that. Humans can do that on FetLife, so humans become tools that need to migrate content across sites. This is called cross-posting, and it’s usually a chore for humans. The problem with FetLife is that there are no non-human tools capable of doing that, which may be one reason why you’re experiencing “visibility [as] harder to achieve.” If there were such tools, the dispersion of this content would be much greater, and thus visibility would be much easier to achieve. See also this comment on my followup post.
Also, this…
…is simply stop energy, which I reject it out of hand. A lot of people are throwing this at me.
Indeed, and getting people to stop pigeonholing themselves is a very long-term goal of mine. Unrealistic? Unreasonable? Perhaps. I’ll let George Bernard Shaw explain:
Finally, I think I wholly agree with you about this:
This is a real problem and also one I hope to be able to do something to help resolve one day.
by maymay
22 Mar 2011 at 10:55
I’m having trouble parsing this question. I do not understand what you are asking me. I also think you misunderstood the “harmful” in my post. Partly, it’s a jovial reference to various technical papers. Partly, it’s provocative to get people’s attention. And partly, it references the fact that isolation is harmful for an individual and isolationism is harmful for a community, but the individuals I’m saying are isolated are the ones not on FetLife, whereas you seem to think I’m talking about the individuals on FetLife. When it comes to the people who are on FetLife, I’m talking about group dynamics (i.e., entire community-scale issues), not individuals.
I find everything is somehow connected. :) Sometimes you just need to look at it in a certain way. But I also really love metaphor, so maybe this just has to do with the way I enjoy thinking about things.
I never said FetLife would invent or destroy anything. You seem to be suffering from either/or (aka. zero-sum) thinking. A lot of people seem to be suffering from that.
by Molly Ren
22 Mar 2011 at 11:05
“I also think you misunderstood the “harmful†in my post. Partly, it’s a jovial reference to various technical papers.”
Oh. That reference went over my head. All I could think of was those annoying CNN news programs about how your shower curtain might be harmful to your health.
“I never said FetLife would invent or destroy anything.”
But May, you said it created a potentially harmful monoculture! I thought that was what your talk was about. o.O
by maymay
22 Mar 2011 at 11:13
No, Molly, what I said was that I think it is “unwisely recreating sexuality monoculture online.” More generally, “monoculture” of all sorts seems a staple of sex-positive communities, indeed, many kinds of communities in the world today. That is why I dislike them so and probably why I have such a hard time being generally happy in our society.
by The Demon, Kia
22 Mar 2011 at 13:25
Thanks for posting this to Fet, where I happened upon it in the activity feed. (h/t to Gaystapo)
Your big point interrelates to my concern about Fet as looking like a ‘home’ to the greater ‘kink community’ (such as that is) while actually being no such thing. The largest problem of ‘kinksters’ treating Fet like it’s a part of the ‘institution of kink’ is that there’s that deep commitment to an anti-archival perspective (the extensive auto-deletion thing built into its structures & the weirdly arbitrary enforcement of its TOU / Guidelines, et al) . .. .
Good food for thought. Thanks!
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by FetLife fallout: the best and the worst early responses to “FetLife Considered Harmful” « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
22 Mar 2011 at 22:00
[…] are three replies I wrote to several threads within FetLife that I started regarding my post, FetLife Considered Harmful: The Risks of Sex Ghettoization. They exemplify some of the best and the worst early responses to my presentation, and in many […]
by LoriA
25 Mar 2011 at 19:50
Apparently I’m a little late to this, but I figured it was worth posting the same comment here as I did on FL (to make a point, perhaps?):
While I very much agree with a lot of your more specific critiques and love the spirit that they’re made in, I have to say that your premise is off. Calling any space made BY a group FOR their own group a ghetto of any sort is simply absurd, and your overarching concern with integrating the kink community with mainstream society strikes me as assimilationist.
Also, this is a false dichotomy: “…turning to FetLife instead of their own blogs or local mailing lists to write, debate, and promote their art and events.” Fetlife isn’t a black hole of content; it’s another venue. Plenty of people (myself included) post content on their public blogs as well as on FL. Those who aren’t are doing so for their own personal reasons. Perhaps some of them are just getting in touch with their kinky sides, maybe others are long-time kinksters who have simply found that they’re more comfortable expressing themselves among their ‘own’. It’s not up to every individual to be an activist just because zie is part of a marginalized group.
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by Anti-censorship best practices for the sex-positive publisher – Atlanta Poly Weekend 2011 « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
29 Mar 2011 at 03:07
[…] to provide as much insight as possible into the months of thinking that have gone into my “FetLife Considered Harmful: The Risks of Sex Ghettoization” essay in an effort to clarify it, because much of the backlash against it (and me) coming […]
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by BDSM Weblog » FetLife Harmful to the Community?
04 Apr 2011 at 18:28
[…] I first listened to Maymay‘s presentation, I’ll admit my reaction was emotionally-based — I love FetLife, and how dare he say […]
by Stanley
06 Apr 2011 at 08:30
I think you’re significantly underestimating the chilling effect of indexing. The permanence and easy access of the internet archives (and the need to create a real record if you’re purchasing/running your own domains) creates a real disincentive to record one’s thoughts in the first place.
You can dismiss this as “the closet,” if you want, but it’s real. And in each individual case, it is perfectly valid. And while exposure to the would-be-newbies peppered among the mainstream is a one goal, it is not the only goal. And it does not come without a cost.
At the heart of it, you seem to think that all of this creative energy and information production would take place at all, if the walls of the garden weren’t there. That is a very, very big assumption, and is I don’t see the support for it. What if people aren’t posting things on fetlife that they would not have posted elsewhere. What if they are writing things that, otherwise, they never would have written at all?
Aside from that, especially for awareness of events being held in a geographical area, a centralized posting resource is just more useful than a decentralized one. It’s akin to a bulletin board, rather than leaving fliers around in coffee shops.
And when you are trying to avoid gawkers and people who would turn your events into fishbowls, preaching to the converted isn’t so disastrous either. Because sometimes, attention and visibility actively destroys events and communities in ways I think you have neglected to account for.
by maymay
06 Apr 2011 at 09:59
I love that you’re using my own terminology to make a point, LoriA, but your point is amusingly ironic and I don’t think you’ve noticed.
I gave examples of FetLife as a venue in my talk that you may have conveniently forgotten. You seem to think that if there were even one black hole in the universe, Earth could not exist. Who’s discussing a false dichotomy now?
What you are actually getting at is what Stanley said more articulately than you did, which I’ll get to in just a moment. But first:
Naming FetLife a ghetto is as absurd as calling the Tenderloin a ghetto, made so by the actions of marginalized people who were already there and still live here. You can be gay and anti-gay. You can be Jewish and an anti-Semite. You can be a marginalized group and still create your own group’s ghetto. This is not a circumstance where the thing’s creator changes the function of the thing created, despite your hopes for the contrary.
Further, your apparent notions of assimilation versus separatism is its own false dichotomy. Maybe you ought examine that, too.
As for the “chilling effect” Stanley mentioned:
No, I’m not, but I can see how you might think so if all you know about me are the ~2,000 words of this essay.
Here’s where you show yourself to be thinking in pretty shallow terms about this whole issue:
This is 100% correct; it’s why §230 of the Telecommunications Act is so powerful and so important. But think about how things play out in an imperfect world.
You sign up for a Facebook account so you don’t have to create a record in WHOIS when you purchase your own domain, but now Facebook has your information and you’re in violation of their TOS if you falsify your legal contact information. So you try another service like Google Blogger, where all you need is an email address, but they force a “content warning” up on you. Besides, both companies (along with any other you might select) may be selling or mining your information for purposes you don’t appreciate.
Who do you trust more? The good people at FetLife or the stakeholders of mainstream corporations?
It seems to me that if you do trust the people behind FetLife more than the people behind Facebook or Google or WordPress.com or insert-your-favored-website-provider-here, then they would be the ideal provider for such a web presence precisely because you trust them. But that’s not a service they can offer right now precisely because of the flawed approach they’re taking with regards to indexing, and that means people in our community are using other, horribly unethical companies instead.
Your insistence that I’m the one making vast assumptions is frustrating to me because it’s annoyingly common among people who read this essay. They either don’t think through these complexities or they don’t have the requisite knowledge to do so rationally but think that they do. To wit:
That’s not what I think at all, because that would be a fine example of stupid either/or thinking, and no matter how often and in how many different ways people keep telling me otherwise, I’m not that stupid. This is not about letting Google index the entirety of FetLife; this is about putting control over what Google can and can not index in the hands of users themselves. See also my specific technical suggestions for what I think FetLife should prioritize next:
There are a couple more paragraphs in the full comment, so I think you’d get some value out of reading the whole thing, but that’s the main chunk of it appropriate for this reply to your comment.
by Katherine
06 Apr 2011 at 11:40
MayMay, I know from previous discussions with you that you don’t really believe in the supportive value of private space that is limited to members of a specific minority group only, so I’m going to preface my comment with “we may differ on this point.”
However, among all the racist, ableist, homophobic bullshit on fetlife and the poser dommes and the folks who think that photoing every beating for their friends makes them somehow get cool points, there are deep discussions going on among abuse survivors (and disabled folks, though that’s a separate post) around kink that I couldn’t have anywhere else. If I google kink or bdsm + abuse, I get a bunch of 101 materials on how kink is not abuse or recognizing the difference. I get nothing that speaks to my lived experience as a verbally abused person trying to understand how to make healthy boundaries in kink. Within the private space of fetlife, these conversations are beginning to happen, and I bet there’s other conversations too that aren’t happening online in other venues. I would argue that it is CRUCIAL for abuse survivors to be able to access information online, because it’s very challenging for us to have conversations about abuse in person, because of the stigma. I didn’t personally think that fetlife had much value outside of “a place to find local events and folks to go to events with” (which has value in itself) before I found these threads, but these are tremendously important.
However, I do agree with you that FetLife’s lack of privacy controls within the space and nuanced control over your data is a problematic issue. I don’t trust Fetlife with my data, which is why I’m quite careful about my actual identity on there. In my particular example, in the case of folks who have ongoing abuse, I’m really quite concerned that people not post identifying information even in groups there, because the posts AREN’T private, and I try to remind people of that.
by maymay
06 Apr 2011 at 11:57
That’s interesting, Katherine, because based on this comment, I don’t think I think what you think I think. :) Either we had a miscommunication in “private discussions,” or you’re picking up on something else in this post that’s neither here nor there to the points I’m making. It’d be helpful if you referenced specific conversations we’ve had, instead of simply asserting some nebulous recollection. Or, to put it slightly less formally: “Show me the money!”
This can be said of most places by most people, but it will no doubt be said of different places by different people and then rebutted by others, so I’ll just refer you to my comment about how glad I am that people are finding or making their own value:
The meat of your comment is a little bit confusing, because unless I’m misunderstanding you, you’re talking at cross-points to yourself:
The three points I hear you making are:
I don’t disagree with any of those points, but I do sense that you disagree with or have a distaste for my approach to advocating improvement. That’s what makes it sound like you’re “talking at cross-points to yourself.” In which case, I’ll reference my earlier statement and suggest you “show me the money”; explain your alternatives to my suggestions.
by Katherine
06 Apr 2011 at 15:19
Sorry, I sort of tend to ramble in comments made while I’m at work.
We had a twitter conversation a few months ago which I can now not point you to because sadly twitter conversations tend to drift off into the aether, where I engaged you because you appeared in my understanding to be claiming that group-only safe private spaces online didn’t have value, which to me was a tremendous dis of the way most of my personal advocacy work over the past few years has been developed – on one track weaving back and forth between creating a safe space and doing outreach to help get the ideas communicated in the safe space in a form that works for a broader audience, and on another track also advocating for and teaching about technical affordances that support this kind of work in the interest of larger conversations about privacy and community online. It seems that I was wrong about your opinion, in which case I apologize and point to the limitations of 140 characters at a time.
To me the most unfortunate thing about Fetlife being a “ghetto”, even more than the lack of privacy controls, is that in fact (unlike the community I run) it does not reward outreach that helps the critical mass of sexually marginalized people they have gathered find a voice and become a force for change in the way people have conversations about sexually marginalized people in the larger public internet. If we can figure out how to use Fetlife as a platform to begin those conversations, then we’re doing the kind of real productive work that can come from moving back and forth between safe space and public space. I’m really totally thrilled to have a dialogue about how we can facilitate these conversations and use Fetlife as a strategic tool, but I won’t do it if the value of both kinds of space isn’t assumed, and I didn’t get the sense that you felt the value.
by maymay
06 Apr 2011 at 23:39
Ah. Katherine, I bet you’re probably talking about my indictment of the way sexuality communities typically implement safe space, in which I said I think it “is beyond shitty.” I stand by that opinion, but make no claim to be discussing what your “safe space” implementation is like, as I’ve never seen it.
That’s a good conversation to have. I would want to discuss why I believe most “safe space” implementations are so shitty first, though, because I am confident that in laying that out, plenty of assumptions, biases, and privileges will be uncovered that will inform the remainder of said conversation. I actually have a draft in the works about this but it may take me some time before I’m ready to publish it.
For my own sake, there is actually a limit to the number of shit storms I’m willing to spawn at once, interesting as they are all sure to be. :)
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by We are all victims, even the revolutionaries « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
20 Apr 2011 at 20:28
[…] find refuge with a lover, or a partner, or a fuck buddy. And there you stay, protected, safe, ignorantly believing you feel “joy.†You lie there, in coital bliss, […]
by Michael
13 Jul 2011 at 13:35
Not only is it a ghetto, but it enables local groups to “represent” kink as a lifestyle whether or not they are healthy. I was rejected by a small, local subculture that hosts the afterparties people go to after they’ve been introduced via munches. The male doms were very insecure and told two of my male friends to leave after they failed to bring food to potluck (no request to bring food next time, just “tell them not to come back”). Later, I was attacked by a woman for writing about my depression on my own profile page, and she blocked me when I responded that picking on the depressed was not a healthy strategy for intervening in mental illness. She then started spreading rumors about me that I “wouldn’t leave her alone” when I tried to be polite on a group page, she banned me from her own group with a tepid explanation and started slandering me in the local community. I asked a mutual fet-friend to talk to her and give me some idea of why she reacted so badly to me, and SHE launched at me with attacks, that I was misogynistic and all sorts of horrible “bad man” stuff that my non-fet friends thought was ridiculous (I mostly hang out in female-dominant pagan and poly groups, whereas the local kink group was male-dominant). She then blocked me. When you block someone on Fetlife, the message history is erased, which means someone can verbally bully you, tell stories about you and ruin your reputation with no way to defend yourself by showing people their posts. They can also hit you with a Fetlife restraining order, which apparently doesn’t come to the website but to your email — I have ADD and I don’t check email more than twice a month or so, relying on more brain-friendly social networks. My account was deleted *simply because I tried to resolve an issue affecting my reputation*, all my writing was destroyed, and many of my contacts were lost, people I was starting to really get to know and like, but hadn’t transferred phone numbers to my cell from the message history. People out there probably think I killed myself because I’d been depressed, then disappeared.
The local male doms have banned me from the houses based on the word of women I didn’t hit on, never pursued in any way, but who had been pursuing me and reacted badly when I liked someone else. I was accused of “overcommunicating” when I tried to get people to mediate or pass messages, and the two male doms lectured me on “not bothering women” but refused to pass messages to those women about my willingness to meet and resolve things openly. I nearly gave up on kink because this was my first exposure to the lifestyle, and it was such a dysfunctional group I started wondering, “is kink just a bunch of dominant men who fear open conflict and high-strung submissive women who attack and then hide behind men?” I’m hoping to find more female-dominant or gender-equal groups and see what kink is like in a healthier subculture. Keeping my mind open as a kink newbie.
It was traumatic because I realized at a certain point that any friendship I made would be subject to someone else’s gossip agenda, and I’m sensitive and independent, not a good mix when dealing with groups that are cliquish and male-dominant. The women went for me at first, then rejected me, and the men closed ranks and told “their” women not to speak to me. I responded to the Fetlife restraining order with my side of the story and was told “you’re a responsible adult and you read the terms of service”. Responsible adulthood apparently now involves reading your email at least three times a month, preferably four because only that would have enabled me to respond without losing my account.
I am very down on Fetlife right now, and cannot open a new account for six months. I’m not used to people living in a closet, and I don’t think I’m suited to it, since radical honesty is a mental health necessity for me. – Michael
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by The Bus Driver and The Gadfly: What my activism looks like at BDSM parties « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
16 Jul 2011 at 01:21
[…] parties at the SF Citadel I’ve been to, I found Transmission to be the most accepting of the kinds of conversations I was starting. I think that’s in no small part due to the fact that the hosts are sensitive to […]
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by Backdoor access to your FetLife profile remained open permanently « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
08 Aug 2011 at 18:45
[…] in March, I described how FetLife’s lack of granular privacy controls meant that anyone who wanted to could gain access to so-called “private†(i.e., […]
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by Scaling the walls of FetLife’s walled garden (with new tools) « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
08 Aug 2011 at 18:47
[…] It’s been clear for some time that FetLife has passed a tipping point. It’s the new behemoth everyone in their sphere of influence has to accommodate “because of their immense user base and perceived power,†to borrow Jeff Atwood’s words from a time not-yet-forgotten. But FetLife’s insulation away from the rest of the Internet is a serious problem. […]
by thejackofhearts
20 Sep 2011 at 22:04
The critique of FL seems to boil down to this: (1) it has created a space for kinky people to talk about kink, but by doing so it has made BDSM into a ghetto; (2) there are a lot of self-important idiots on FL who are shaping the way kinky people interact in harmful ways; (3) FL has top-down undemocratic policies imposed by an unaccountable centralized hierarchy; (4) if you spend all your time on FL, you’re going to be lost in a ghetto. May also (5), FL’s privacy practices are not the best. Better do you kinky interactions with other kinksters on FB.
I don’t see it that way exactly. (2) and (4) are true, as they are true of any large special interest group. Oddly enough, such groups bring together people with common interests to discuss them. Many participants in any such group are fools, and anyone who devotes him or herself exclusively to one interest has _chosen_ to live a ghetto. I don’t see the supposed centralized policies outside particular groups (3). I’m not aware of particular problems with FL’s privacy policies (5) that were not created by an individual’s indiscretion. Btw, given the way that BDSM is still regarded in even more progressive and supposedly sex-positive circles, it would be crazy to come out on FB. You might as well put it on your resume and your office door: I am kinky. In my work, I can’t do that.I will come to (1) in the following.
Many years ago I was on a perfectly wonderful, to my mind, political internet group about people with a shared interest in Marxist politics. I choose this example rather than, say, other lists I have been on discussing law because Marxism, like kink, is radioactive in the public eye.There were plenty of idiots who proclaimed that their variety and practice of Marxism was the One True Way. You learned to ignore them unless you wanted to have a discussion with dogmatic idiots. There were also brilliant people discussing important questions at a very high level. It ended up mainly as a space for Marxists to interact with each other. (Duh.) There were a few nonMarxists interested in Marxism on the list, but it was a “ghetto.” Anyone who limited his political discussion to that forum was going to get a skewed view. The cure is simple: branch out if you wanted a wider view of politics.
That group, before the listowners shut it down for some obscure reason, was a _tool_. The tools we use affect our lives but needn’t control them. FL is no different, really. If you live on FL listen to and engage with ignorant and self-important people, you’re going to end up in the bad places where the OP (as we say on FL) warns us about. If we use it among other tools, talk to smart and open-minded people, and exercise reasonable discretion, it will prove as valuable as I and many people have found it. Btw I have met _all_ my BDSM partners whom I’ve met on line on other sites with wider or different interests.
To put it it in a nutshell, one uncharitable way to put the OP’s critique is, “FL made me do it!” Sorry, pal, if you got some place you didn’t want to be or that was bad for you using FL, you did it by using FL poorly. Don’t blame the site or John Baku. Use the brain the gods gave you.
Jack
by maymay
20 Sep 2011 at 23:58
It’s good to see this post is still getting attention. On the other hand, as your comment shows, Jack, it’s still being received with a knee-jerk defensiveness that does not accurately consider either the critique itself nor the reality of the problem space.
Who said Facebook was a safe place to “come out”? I didn’t. I said that Facebook is a communications tool that allows people the kind of granular privacy controls to veil chosen bits of information from other users who are using the same tool, while FetLife still largely lacks such a capability. Therefore people can create a Facebook profile—which they may or may not choose to link to their legal identity—and then they can use it in a way that is safer for interpersonal communications than they currently can using FetLife.
So your understanding of my critique is rather boorish, at best.
If only it were actually that simple. Sadly, online filter bubbles—the phenomenon you describe—are not actually easy to escape from, especially for technically underprivileged users.
Your analysis of the situation suffers from the same ignorance causing shortsightedness in others. Not surprising, but certainly disappointing. You seem rather intelligent, otherwise.
by thejackofhearts
21 Sep 2011 at 00:42
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.
by maymay
21 Sep 2011 at 00:50
Agreed, Jack.
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by Dreaming of Compassion: Technology, Polyamory, and Social Justice – Public Anthropology Conference 2011 « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
16 Oct 2011 at 14:04
[…] with the majority of the sexuality subculture and its willful ignorance. Traveling outside of the sex-positive filter bubble is thus a high priority, despite its difficulty and the fears it raises for me, personally. The […]
by Simple
24 Oct 2011 at 09:29
I had a horrible experience with FetLife. I joined the Submissive Women’s group and posted a question/comment. I receieved many hateful, judgmental, bitchy, presumptious responses. When I deleted my post in an effort to stop the hate directed my way they group leader banned me for 7 days and sent me a scathing email. She made the assumption that I had deleted my post “dirty delete” because I wanted to be agreed with and wasn’t getting that. She went on to imply that I had disrespected all the good people who took time out of their busy days to respond to my post with thoughtful answers. In reality what I got was mean responses from people all too eager to let me know I did not belong in their group and even went so far as to imply I didn’t belong in society as a whole. It was the most awful online group experience I have ever had. I might as well have been an African-American at a KKK meeting.
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by Suddenly the world seems such a perfect place: Technomaddery, Cyberbusking, and More « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
02 Jan 2012 at 03:55
[…] reconstituted myself in a form both evanescent yet permanent enough to squeeze sufficiently through the static walls surrounding us and feel the spark of possibility—a mental liberation more akin to psychological rebellion than […]
by Jamie
10 Jan 2012 at 03:59
@OP
I couldn’t agree more with everything you’ve outlined in your talk. It runs parallel to my entire experience since joining FetLife to interact on non-party days with my local community members.
Everything that could possibly backfire by becoming disproportionately magnified has, and I find myself spending most of my online time on Facebook because there’s very little keeping me engaged on FetLife at all.
It is no coincidence that I’m sexually inactive (questioning whether I’m asexual, but certain I’m transromantic), queer, trans, and genderqueer. I know I’m among a marked minority, and I would be long-gone from this website if I weren’t white, because there wouldn’t even be a single thing keeping me there if I wasn’t.
The entire website is fucking ridiculous, and if I wasn’t confident that dismantling white-washing, white-splaining, and white-is-right-ing was something I, as a white person, am strong and confident enough to do–and am capable of doing, while recognizing how important it is–I would’ve removed my account by now because of all the exclusionary bullying by fellow (white) “community” members.
by Pervertabrate
16 Feb 2012 at 04:38
I hate to overstate the obvious, but this was arguably the most well reasoned treatise against the darkside of cyber-sexual communities I have ever encountered. I guess that if I did have something to add it would be that the ghettoization of Kink has come about as the indirect result of the Kink community embracing a “coroprate” mentality in the first place via our own elitist alientation of “those not like us” among us. Simply stated, long before there was ever a Fetlife, there were ppl who wore their tags (e.g.Dom, Sub, Switch-etc) with an insufferable pride-To the point of finding reasons to dislike, if not alienate each other. Excessive labeling has led us to this place were we have made a practice of clinging to preconceived notions about each other based solely on identity labels that we have invested too much in. Fetlife (as well as cyber kink communities in general) have just helped to facilitate these prejudices-giving them a greater voice. We will never find a way out of this quasi-bigotry until we learn to place more emphasis on finding ways to cherish our own identities & orientations without
embracing so much of the smug, elitist garbage that creeps in.
Check your headspace at the door long enough to tolerate-not necessarily like-but tolerate those people & predilections that are not your own long enough to become reaquainted with the common ground that we all share.
Lastly, I love & wholehertedly agree with your statement “Kinky is an adjective, not an activity.”
by Najakcharmer
11 Apr 2012 at 22:44
So if I write something on Fetlife, I lose the right to publish it elsewhere? If that’s true, it’s severely fucked up.
@maymay, I’m thinking that writing tools to actively circumvent someone else’s web site has less ethical merit than setting up your own open-source social networking site as an alternative.
One thing I don’t think anyone has mentioned so far is the utter untenability of trying to use CollarMe or any similar site with ASL search enabled as a social network. I have removed my profile from all sites except Fet, because this is literally the single and only BDSM community site I have ever been on where I am not deluged by crude and disgusting sexual solicitations from strangers. I can’t function socially in the kink community on any site other than this one, because I seriously don’t have the time to wade through oceans of crap on a daily basis.
If you have any positive suggestions or alternative offerings, I’m listening. But what I won’t do is subject myself to the ick of the other sites I’ve been on, not ever again. There is not enough eye bleach in the world to get me to keep any kind of profile or Internet presence on a site that is used by predatory trolls to randomly proposition kinky women. Sadly that would be all of the rest of the ones I’ve tried.
Whatever else Fetlife has done, it has accomplished this one thing – it feels like a safe place for me to hang out, because I’m not constantly getting dick pictures and crude propositions in my inbox. Keeping Fetlife in an insular sandbox and disallowing searches does have significant negative effects, but this seems to be one of the positive ones.
I don’t know what the solution is, but I do know that I do not want to be searchable in ways that encourage strangers to target me for what ends up feeling like virtual sexual assault. It’s not fun, and while you can delete and ignore and block if it’s just one, it gets draining and wearing when the barrage is constant. I can’t and won’t go there again, which is why I have retreated to the FetLife ghetto and am contributing to its ghettoization as the price of being able to socialize openly on an adult site.
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by rehearsalsdepartures
07 Jun 2012 at 12:43
[…] guess: do I know about Fetlife? Yes, thanks. Share this:PrintEmailLike this:LikeBe the first to like this post. Posted by […]
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by Never, ever assume you need permission from a dominant person to speak to a submissive person « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
16 Jul 2012 at 15:21
[…] BDSM Scene-State, and some given BDSM play activity itself. The short-sighted and, bluntly, stupid conflation of systemic versus individualistic perspectives, coupled with dramatic misunderstandings of what BDSM ethnographer Staci Newmahr calls “the […]
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by Shooting the messenger will not change the message: FetLife’s stance on privacy is the same as the RIAA’s stance on piracy « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
13 Aug 2012 at 00:16
[…] FetLife makes a lot of you comfortable. I think that’s very dangerous. It’s dangerous not just because it means you’re publishing information about yourself […]
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by Lies, Damned Lies, and FetLife « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
15 Aug 2012 at 02:59
[…] the massive sea-change crackling through sexuality subcultures. It is equally foolish to diminish FetLife.com’s and, more precisely, John Baku’s incredible influence here. Influence does not make someone “The Bad Guy.” But it does make them […]
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by Promises are bad premises for privacy: Myth versus Fact about the FetLife Proxy « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
17 Aug 2012 at 14:00
[…] cache was useful for getting you—yes, you—to pay attention to the privacy-compromising and victim-blaming nightmare FetLife has long been ignoring. At the same time, potential collateral damage was curbed by limiting the cache to the activity of […]
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by Let’s get practical: Care about Internet privacy because it keeps your loved ones physically safer « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
31 Aug 2012 at 14:21
[…] evident disregard of its users privacy—that is, YOUR privacy. The fact of the matter is that FetLife.com is an extremely dangerous service to use, and I’m sorry to say that you’re finding out why […]
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by Episode 61 – Listener Questions « The Big Little Podcast
09 Sep 2012 at 17:05
[…] Concern about FetLife as a kinky ghetto -Â http://maybemaimed.com/2011/03/20/fetlife-considered-harmful/ […]
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by The BDSM Scene is an abusive social institution; let their world burn (they’re doing it already) « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
14 Sep 2012 at 11:51
[…] post. It not only contains further analysis of the sexism inherent in mainstream BDSM culture (yes, even subcultures have a mainstream), it offers some generic advice for “throwing out the bad” and “keeping what […]
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by My (satirical) application to be hired as a FetLife Media Caretaker « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
14 Jan 2013 at 19:34
[…] by refusing to respond to any of the legal counter-notices I sent and seem to have chosen to ignore the issues I have been raising for years after I sent you a Cease and Desist letter for your potentially illegal […]
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by Ready to ditch FetLife? Tools to make the transition easier. « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed
05 Mar 2013 at 16:35
[…] while I can continue to say “I told you so” until the cows come home, I’m taking a different approach this […]
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by tumblr backups
19 May 2013 at 21:21
[…] humorous and clearly intended to be satirical, I think this is actually quite a useful form. I like that it’s not on FetLife. You can fill this form out and email it to [email protected] if you like, or send it to other […]
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by If speaking up means breaking The Rules, let’s fucking break them. | tumblr backups
19 May 2013 at 21:21
[…] only one more thing I have to add to this, which is the following: I’m signal-boosting/cross-posting this outside of FetLife because stuff like this is important enough to break every self-protective, liability-limiting rule […]
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by tumblr backups
19 May 2013 at 21:34
[…] the massive sea-change crackling through sexuality subcultures. It is equally foolish to diminish FetLife.com’s and, more precisely, John Baku’s incredible influence here. Influence does not make someone “The Bad Guy.†But it does make them […]
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by Individualism versus Systems Behavior: You are not a special and unique snowflake | tumblr backups
20 May 2013 at 04:23
[…] BDSM Scene-State, and some given BDSM play activity itself. The short-sighted and, bluntly, stupid conflation of systemic versus individualistic perspectives, coupled with dramatic misunderstandings of what BDSM ethnographer Staci Newmahr calls “the […]